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I don't think Ukraine is catching up to India, it's just different work. In my experience, the typical job going to Ukraine is a different breed. If you can dea

I don't think Ukraine is catching up to India, it's just different work. In my experience, the typical job going to Ukraine is a different breed. If you can deal with the time zone and language barrier, they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. In fact, C++ devs from that region are the secret sauce to a lot of large codebases I've seen.

bhouston 9y ago
> they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.
- jedmeyers 9y ago
  My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.
    - qaq 9y ago
      There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products
      - user5994461 9y ago
        Magento is a wordpress plugin, or similar enough. Hardly a large company. Samsung is a big hardware company, I'm not sure what they would have in software job but why not. GitLab is a fully remote company, they don't recruit anywhere specifically. Their full disclosure on their (low) salaries and losing customer data is certainly driving away the senior folks I know. Game companies are the shithole of the industry, the worst conditions and pays, worse than Indian sweet shops and failed SV startups. There is no sane job or career to be made there. Back to the point. You're going to work in a consulting shop, soon enough.
        qaq 9y ago
        I am not sure I follow :) the logic. This is a random list of product companies that I remember it's a small fraction of companies with large dev. offices in Ukraine. GitLab was a Ukrainian startup and has a large number of developers in Ukraine. Samsung had about 700 developers as far I remember. The compensation trends have very low correlation to how things are in US. The largest local $ making companies are mainly gambling, crypto and porn but they are not very public although many of them a really huge.
        user5994461 9y ago
        I mean that good developers will migrate toward local companies that have good work conditions, good money, good projects, and good co workers. The companies you quote are not better than a middle grade outsourcing company in these regards, so they're not stealing their talents. If they are the best companies you could think of, that explains why you can find decent developers in the local outsourcing firms.
        qaq 9y ago
        Well the above to one extent or the other have all of the above but outsourcing companies are on par as far as perks. I am working for fairly large public US company and all of the above mentioned have nicer offices and more perks :). The reason I mentioned these is because they are to some extent well known.
        siddharthdeswal 9y ago
        You're way off on Magento. See https://magento.com/news-room/press-releases/digital-commerce-innovators-drive-record-2016-101-billion-magento-economy https://magento.com/news-room/press-releases/digital-commerc... They're not a WordPress plugin, and they are a large company. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.
        wolco 9y ago
        Magento is the biggest online marketplace platform. If you need full control over your store you would self host the software vs using shopify.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      Exactly you can see that in the eu the former WP countries with poor economies - causes a massive brain drain. I seem to recall seeing a quote that one of the Baltic stats some huge % f hat years graduates where working abroad.
- qaq 9y ago
  It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. When I was living in Ukraine my disposable income was like most of my salary vs in US it's a small fraction of my salary.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France. If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.
    - qaq 9y ago
      Yep and Norway has higher pay too but taxes and cost of living kill it.
    - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
      Parent is still in an inflated labor bubble. In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K. I had to walk away from a lot of hideously low priced opportunities when I lived in the mid-west.
      - qaq 9y ago
        In Ukraine it can not be inflated by definition as there is basically 0 vc money. The companies are profitable and are paying market rates.
        shrewduser 9y ago
        isn't a lot of the outsourcing connected to western markets and that very VC money? i think it's all connected you'll find.
- nine_k 9y ago
  The country, as a part of USSR, used to have an accent on industry development. Its higher education used to be free, and largely remains so. In 1990s, it turned very poor, and is still far from average European level. Hence a generation of very advanced developers asking rather moderate money. I hope it will not last, because the level of consumption and wages will rise :)
hux_ 9y ago
If they had a weirdly large supply you can be guaranteed an army of recruiters from FB, Amazon, Google et al would be lining up at campuses the way they do in India. The only limitation these firms face in growing faster is getting their hands on talent.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Bullshit. Tech companies are not competing for worldwide talents. The companies you quote have at most 3 offices in Europe: London, Zurich, Dublin. The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family.
  - eru 9y ago
    > The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family. Do you mean that as in "move" or as in "work long hours"? Google has at least offices in Germany, too.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      I meant move. Google has offices in almost every countries but they are administrative offices with almost no employees. If you're a tech worker, you can only be in one of the very few tech locations.
      - eru 9y ago
        They do have tech workers in multiple locations in Germany. At least one of them is almost only tech, but small. But you are right, that those are not big major tech offices like the three mentioned. So most engineers in Europe would still be working out of London, Zurich or Dublin.
  - nine_k 9y ago
    A reasonable relocation package includes moving the family. I've seen a few firsthand.

bhouston 9y ago

> they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.

jedmeyers 9y ago
My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.
- user5994461 9y ago
  And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.
  - qaq 9y ago
    There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products
    - user5994461 9y ago
      Magento is a wordpress plugin, or similar enough. Hardly a large company. Samsung is a big hardware company, I'm not sure what they would have in software job but why not. GitLab is a fully remote company, they don't recruit anywhere specifically. Their full disclosure on their (low) salaries and losing customer data is certainly driving away the senior folks I know. Game companies are the shithole of the industry, the worst conditions and pays, worse than Indian sweet shops and failed SV startups. There is no sane job or career to be made there. Back to the point. You're going to work in a consulting shop, soon enough.
      - qaq 9y ago
        I am not sure I follow :) the logic. This is a random list of product companies that I remember it's a small fraction of companies with large dev. offices in Ukraine. GitLab was a Ukrainian startup and has a large number of developers in Ukraine. Samsung had about 700 developers as far I remember. The compensation trends have very low correlation to how things are in US. The largest local $ making companies are mainly gambling, crypto and porn but they are not very public although many of them a really huge.
        user5994461 9y ago
        I mean that good developers will migrate toward local companies that have good work conditions, good money, good projects, and good co workers. The companies you quote are not better than a middle grade outsourcing company in these regards, so they're not stealing their talents. If they are the best companies you could think of, that explains why you can find decent developers in the local outsourcing firms.
        qaq 9y ago
        Well the above to one extent or the other have all of the above but outsourcing companies are on par as far as perks. I am working for fairly large public US company and all of the above mentioned have nicer offices and more perks :). The reason I mentioned these is because they are to some extent well known.
      - siddharthdeswal 9y ago
        You're way off on Magento. See https://magento.com/news-room/press-releases/digital-commerce-innovators-drive-record-2016-101-billion-magento-economy https://magento.com/news-room/press-releases/digital-commerc... They're not a WordPress plugin, and they are a large company. I don't mean to be rude, but I don't think you know what you're talking about.
      - wolco 9y ago
        Magento is the biggest online marketplace platform. If you need full control over your store you would self host the software vs using shopify.
  - walshemj 9y ago
    Exactly you can see that in the eu the former WP countries with poor economies - causes a massive brain drain. I seem to recall seeing a quote that one of the Baltic stats some huge % f hat years graduates where working abroad.
qaq 9y ago
It's very far from "poor" when IT industry is concerned :). While pay rate is obviously lower vs US it's higher or on par with most EU countries. So for say Senior Java Dev (the pay is much more dependent on a stack vs US) making 66K - 72K which would be about half of what same person would be making in US (outside of SV), but tax rate will be around 3% vs 30% and cost of living is a fraction of what it is in US. When I was living in Ukraine my disposable income was like most of my salary vs in US it's a small fraction of my salary.
- user5994461 9y ago
  70k gross is more than what a senior developer would get anywhere in Germany or France. If you really get that much, you've got it better than all western Europe, except London and Zurich.
  - qaq 9y ago
    Yep and Norway has higher pay too but taxes and cost of living kill it.
  - kevin_thibedeau 9y ago
    Parent is still in an inflated labor bubble. In most of the US outside of the major cities it can be a struggle for experienced engineers to break 80K. I had to walk away from a lot of hideously low priced opportunities when I lived in the mid-west.
    - qaq 9y ago
      In Ukraine it can not be inflated by definition as there is basically 0 vc money. The companies are profitable and are paying market rates.
      - shrewduser 9y ago
        isn't a lot of the outsourcing connected to western markets and that very VC money? i think it's all connected you'll find.
nine_k 9y ago
The country, as a part of USSR, used to have an accent on industry development. Its higher education used to be free, and largely remains so. In 1990s, it turned very poor, and is still far from average European level. Hence a generation of very advanced developers asking rather moderate money. I hope it will not last, because the level of consumption and wages will rise :)

hux_ 9y ago

If they had a weirdly large supply you can be guaranteed an army of recruiters from FB, Amazon, Google et al would be lining up at campuses the way they do in India. The only limitation these firms face in growing faster is getting their hands on talent.

user5994461 9y ago
Bullshit. Tech companies are not competing for worldwide talents. The companies you quote have at most 3 offices in Europe: London, Zurich, Dublin. The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family.
- eru 9y ago
  > The first thing a recruiter will tell you is to abandon your life and your family. Do you mean that as in "move" or as in "work long hours"? Google has at least offices in Germany, too.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    I meant move. Google has offices in almost every countries but they are administrative offices with almost no employees. If you're a tech worker, you can only be in one of the very few tech locations.
    - eru 9y ago
      They do have tech workers in multiple locations in Germany. At least one of them is almost only tech, but small. But you are right, that those are not big major tech offices like the three mentioned. So most engineers in Europe would still be working out of London, Zurich or Dublin.
- nine_k 9y ago
  A reasonable relocation package includes moving the family. I've seen a few firsthand.