8 ms·

Not to mention if your only competitive advantage is price, there always is or will be a source of labor that is cheaper than you. For example, a number of star

Not to mention if your only competitive advantage is price, there always is or will be a source of labor that is cheaper than you. For example, a number of startups I work with are now moving their IT support and basic dev to the Philippines. The quality of work is equally bad or worse, but it's even cheaper than India and the language barrier is comparable.

Blueskytech 9y ago
So the Fortune 500 company I work for hired Verizon as its managed networking provider and their staff is all based in Manila. While others on my team complain about this I have to be honest, their support is top notch because the language barrier is non-existent. Compared to our in-house Indian IT support the language barrier is a stark contrast, I could only hope we move our corp system's support to the Philippines.
myth_drannon 9y ago
I noticed a lot of outsourcing work is going to Ukraine and Belarus. India got a head start because of English language but right now many devolopers in Eastern Europe speak fluent English as well.
- rosege 9y ago
  I've worked with some Ukrainian devs and they were very smart guys
- Clubber 9y ago
  I've worked with Belarusian developers and they were top notch. Belarus is very close with Russia and is considered the last dictatorship in Europe, so weigh that with a decision. Having said that, the old Soviet / Eastern Bloc countries are very sharp. They were of course on the other side of the Cold War, which is what birthed most of our modern technology.
  - maxxxxx 9y ago
    I don't know if this is still the case but the Eastern Bloc developers I have met years ago were all super strong in math and other science fundamentals. Very impressive.
  - xstartup 9y ago
    I've had opposite experience. In my case, they were sharp but they were also toxic to be working in a team. So, we had to move our R&D centre to Poland.
    - sumedh 9y ago
      > but they were also toxic to be working in a team What do you mean?
      - Clubber 9y ago
        I'm not the person you replied to, but I suspect they tend to be very headstrong and don't have a problem telling you that you are wrong with vigor. Then are willing to argue the point for an hour or two. If you are not accustomed to it, it can be a shock, but it certainly can lead to finding the best solution.
- menacingly 9y ago
  I don't think Ukraine is catching up to India, it's just different work. In my experience, the typical job going to Ukraine is a different breed. If you can deal with the time zone and language barrier, they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. In fact, C++ devs from that region are the secret sauce to a lot of large codebases I've seen.
  - bhouston 9y ago
    > they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.
    - jedmeyers 9y ago
      My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.
      - user5994461 9y ago
        And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.
        qaq 9y ago
        There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products
        user5994461 9y ago
        Magento is a wordpress plugin, or similar enough. Hardly a large company. Samsung is a big hardware company, I'm not sure what they would have in software job but why not. GitLab is a fully remote company, they don't recruit anywhere specifically. Their full disclosure on their (low) salaries and losing customer data is certainly driving away the senior folks I know. Game companies are the shithole of the industry, the worst conditions and pays, worse than Indian sweet shops and failed SV startups. There is no sane job or career to be made there. Back to the point. You're going to work in a consulting shop, soon enough.
tigershark 9y ago
Actually in Philippines pretty much everyone speaks a quite understandable English compared to the average Indian that thinks to be speaking a perfect English while the reality is quite different.
- kartickv 9y ago
  "Understandable" to you, based on where you live and what dialect of English you speak :)
  - bobsman123 9y ago
    Any Spanish accents or word muddling will be much more understandable to anyone living in the United States than an Indian accent or word confusion. This isn’t helped by the fact that Indians in tech in America rarely speak English with each other.
  - Spooky23 9y ago
    For most folks in the US, understanding a Spanish accent is easier than most Indian accents. This is especially true for lower paid support roles.
    - kartickv 9y ago
      Maybe so, and many Americans aren't understandable to me as an Indian. I just wanted to point out that not being understandable is a statement about the person making it as much as it is about the people it's ostensibly about. Indians, in this case,
      - Spooky23 9y ago
        Totally get it. I grew up in a weird household, with half my family with strong Irish accents and the other with strong NYC accents. When I moved away from New York, almost nobody could understand me at all for a few weeks. A few teachers thought I was a non-native speaker.

Blueskytech 9y ago

So the Fortune 500 company I work for hired Verizon as its managed networking provider and their staff is all based in Manila. While others on my team complain about this I have to be honest, their support is top notch because the language barrier is non-existent. Compared to our in-house Indian IT support the language barrier is a stark contrast, I could only hope we move our corp system's support to the Philippines.

myth_drannon 9y ago

I noticed a lot of outsourcing work is going to Ukraine and Belarus. India got a head start because of English language but right now many devolopers in Eastern Europe speak fluent English as well.

rosege 9y ago
I've worked with some Ukrainian devs and they were very smart guys
Clubber 9y ago
I've worked with Belarusian developers and they were top notch. Belarus is very close with Russia and is considered the last dictatorship in Europe, so weigh that with a decision. Having said that, the old Soviet / Eastern Bloc countries are very sharp. They were of course on the other side of the Cold War, which is what birthed most of our modern technology.
- maxxxxx 9y ago
  I don't know if this is still the case but the Eastern Bloc developers I have met years ago were all super strong in math and other science fundamentals. Very impressive.
- xstartup 9y ago
  I've had opposite experience. In my case, they were sharp but they were also toxic to be working in a team. So, we had to move our R&D centre to Poland.
  - sumedh 9y ago
    > but they were also toxic to be working in a team What do you mean?
    - Clubber 9y ago
      I'm not the person you replied to, but I suspect they tend to be very headstrong and don't have a problem telling you that you are wrong with vigor. Then are willing to argue the point for an hour or two. If you are not accustomed to it, it can be a shock, but it certainly can lead to finding the best solution.
menacingly 9y ago
I don't think Ukraine is catching up to India, it's just different work. In my experience, the typical job going to Ukraine is a different breed. If you can deal with the time zone and language barrier, they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. In fact, C++ devs from that region are the secret sauce to a lot of large codebases I've seen.
- bhouston 9y ago
  > they have a weirdly large supply of very competent developers. I've noticed this as well. Very strange that it is so "poor" but so talented. I guess that probably won't last.
  - jedmeyers 9y ago
    My guess this is due to the remnants of the good soviet math/science program in schools and universities. Which was originally heavily influenced by Kolmogorov by the way.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      And a lack of job prospects in the region. The decent developers have no alternative but to work in the local outsourcing shops.
      - qaq 9y ago
        There is a good number of product companies that have large offices there (Magento, Samsung, GitLab, Wargaming, Grammarly, Ubisoft and a ton more) plus large outsourcing companies pay well and are generally working on large scale serious products
        user5994461 9y ago
        Magento is a wordpress plugin, or similar enough. Hardly a large company. Samsung is a big hardware company, I'm not sure what they would have in software job but why not. GitLab is a fully remote company, they don't recruit anywhere specifically. Their full disclosure on their (low) salaries and losing customer data is certainly driving away the senior folks I know. Game companies are the shithole of the industry, the worst conditions and pays, worse than Indian sweet shops and failed SV startups. There is no sane job or career to be made there. Back to the point. You're going to work in a consulting shop, soon enough.

tigershark 9y ago

Actually in Philippines pretty much everyone speaks a quite understandable English compared to the average Indian that thinks to be speaking a perfect English while the reality is quite different.

kartickv 9y ago
"Understandable" to you, based on where you live and what dialect of English you speak :)
- bobsman123 9y ago
  Any Spanish accents or word muddling will be much more understandable to anyone living in the United States than an Indian accent or word confusion. This isn’t helped by the fact that Indians in tech in America rarely speak English with each other.
- Spooky23 9y ago
  For most folks in the US, understanding a Spanish accent is easier than most Indian accents. This is especially true for lower paid support roles.
  - kartickv 9y ago
    Maybe so, and many Americans aren't understandable to me as an Indian. I just wanted to point out that not being understandable is a statement about the person making it as much as it is about the people it's ostensibly about. Indians, in this case,
    - Spooky23 9y ago
      Totally get it. I grew up in a weird household, with half my family with strong Irish accents and the other with strong NYC accents. When I moved away from New York, almost nobody could understand me at all for a few weeks. A few teachers thought I was a non-native speaker.