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> I think it comes from their culture, they are not used to work hard or to do something willingly. Cut the crap. India is a country of 1.3 billion people, don

> I think it comes from their culture, they are not used to work hard or to do something willingly. Cut the crap. India is a country of 1.3 billion people, don't peddle bullshit stereotypes. Not working hard doesn't come from the culture; it's quite the opposite if anything. >They are doing it if they must, if someone tells them that they have to do it. Maybe the firm you are dealing with doesn't pay the employees well enough, which in turn causes demotivation?

oh_sigh 9y ago
Maybe it is something else, like the differing power-distance relationships that Americans and Indians have.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
I am part Indian (albeit ethnically, not culturally) and work in finance. I always had a great experience working with Indian bankers, investors and VCs. The stereotypes puzzled me. Then I spoke to a few IT outsourcing/consulting companies. It’s horrible. Starting sentences with “no” even when agreeing, jargon-laid bullshitting, lying about simple things, overt sexism (e.g. if my female colleague asks a question, the response is addressed to me), et cetera. I fully blame a small handful of firms for nurturing a toxic culture and then projecting it to the world. (Indian tech start-ups have, in my experience, a wonderful culture.)
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- hkmurakami 9y ago
  From the outside looking in ( and a handful of anecdotal encounters and work experiences) I feel like the educated Indian workforce is bifurcated between one cluster of brilliant hard working people and another cluster of... Bullshitters who try to project the visage of knowing what's going on. But maybe that's because for better or for worse India does have an articulate culture of speaking up for yourself, and these two outlier groups just become memorable.
  - shagie 9y ago
    It depends on what one's career goals are. From what I understand (I'm not Indian, but I've worked with many over the years), for a sizable portion of the workforce, the goal isn't to be senior programmer but rather management. The way you get to management is by having people report to you and then get a new job higher up on the ladder at another company (it is my understanding that promotions from within the company are difficult compared to hiring outsiders). One puts in time in grade, switching projects frequently to build up the resume. Unfortunately, this makes institutional knowledge at the client companies not something that is preserved easily. (anecdote: when I was laid off to be replaced by someone from India, the 12 years of how the system works was transferred in 4 weeks of 4h a day meetings, 5 days a week (that was painful)... keeping in touch with my old coworkers, the person who replaced me left 6 months later and explained everything about how my job worked and what they learned in just a few days... who left six months later and only did one day of information transfer) So, switch companies, go from developer to sr. developer in a year (2x 6 month projects) to team lead (with 5 people reporting - another year or so) to architect (with 3 team leads reporting - another year or so)... and you've got a manager. If someone is on the track "I want to be a manager", switching projects frequently and never actually diving too deeply into the project is probably the best approach. The technical people are harder to find. They're not switching jobs quickly and so they're unlikely to get hired into the project that the client sees. Maybe they're tapped as a "work on this 25%" but I know how that goes... it means one week out of the month you're catching up on everything for that project and trying to fend off context switches before you're not thinking about it for another month. For the technical people, many of them are able to find a visa and move to the US for some extended period of time. This contributes to a brain drain in India. Also the indentured servitude aspect of the H1B visa means that there is less mobility and again, its harder to meet these people in random places. They do exist - and I've worked with a number of them... but I've worked with far more people who are in a position for six months to a year and then moving on to another contract at another contracting company.
    - kamaal 9y ago
      This is spot on. The incentive system so much more promotes management careers that anybody who wishes to go down the tech path comes across as stupid. Its very common in services companies to treat tech people as somebody who don't have the chops to do prestigious management work. Do this for sufficient number of years and eventually you will have very few people who want to do any real work and most will want to be managers.
- friedButter 9y ago
  > Then I spoke to a few IT outsourcing/consulting companies You get what you pay for. The quality of low level employees in IT outsourcing companies (not just the Indian ones) is at par with (or lower than) American minimum wage workers
naravara 9y ago
>Maybe the firm you are dealing with doesn't pay the employees well enough, which in turn causes demotivation? This. I had the same complaint about the India based team I had to work with, until one of them came on rotation to the states, we had a beer together, and he told me all about the working environment they have there. Nightmarish commutes, extremely nitpicky and punitive performance management, no commitment to career development, limited benefits, brutal hours, and meagre pay even adjusted for Indian CoL. Under those conditions, it's no wonder people were hard to work with. They were overworked, held to stupid performance metrics that demoralized them, and were under the boot of a "beatings will continue until morale improves" management style. If you hire based only on cost, nickel and dime each other to maximize your value for money in the short term, and generally treat your workforce like chattel, it shouldn't be surprising when they're disengaged and unable to be as forward leaning as you would like.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Plus, massive turnover.
TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
What makes you say this? Don't stereotypes come from something? Do you think it's a coincidence that a stereotypical Asian American is reserved, disciplined, and good at math, and that Asian Americans in America make considerably more than any other race[1]? Btw, "Cut the crap" is an unprofessional, unproductive way to start a conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_... Edit: To those downvoting me, can you please explain? What did I say in my post that was inaccurate?
- spaceseaman 9y ago
  Stereotypes typically don't come from anything. The "stereotype" of an Asian male is someone who * can't talk to women * doesn't understand social skills * has poor hygiene / manners * values STEM above softer skills * values hard work and effort It's pointless to make these claims because such broad generalizations immediately break down the second you meet an Asian man. There's no way to know which (if any) of these stereotypes they uphold. Some of these sterotypes have a positive bend: Poor social skills imply that they are reserved. Valuing hard work makes you a disciplined person. etc. But these stereotypes are still bad. They lead people to make unfair assumptions about Asian men because they are Asian. There's plenty of literature out there about stereotypes and prejudice and especially about the "model minority" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority From there you may see why folks are downvoting you: > A common misconception is that the affected communities usually hold pride in their labeling as the model minority. The model minority stereotype is considered detrimental to relevant minority communities because it is used to justify the exclusion of minorities in the distribution of assistance programs, both public and private, as well as to understate or slight the achievements of individuals within that minority. Furthermore, the idea of the model minority pits minority groups against each other by implying that non-model groups are at fault for falling short of the model minority level of achievement and assimilation EDIT: And as a bonus (since that Wikipedia article is DAMN good) "Scientific studies have revealed that positive stereotypes have many negative and damaging consequences both socially and psychologically." The citations are in the article.
- che_shirecat 9y ago
adrya407 9y ago
Since you are an Indian too, I think your remarks are kind of subjective and your reply a bit harsh, but I'll add more facts that sustain my point of view. >Not working hard doesn't come from the culture Yes it truly does. Since every individual has inherited from the environment and has been cultured that he needs to do just what he is told (the minimum), this is how he grows. >Maybe the firm you are dealing with doesn't pay the employees well enough You can't hide behind your finger with this excuse. If you want a raise you tend to work harder, do the extra mile, you defenly don't get a raise by doing the minimum. Also, if you are good at what you are doing but you are not happy with the salary then why accept the job in first place?
- just_saying_it 9y ago
  Assigning attributes to an entire country based on experience with a few people is poor logic. It is the same if someone worked with a few people at Google India or one of the IITs, and claimed all Indians are super smart and it comes from their culture.
- newusertoday 9y ago
  how do you explain the anamoly of indians in virtually all top jobs from ceo's of microsoft,google,pepsi etc. to pulitzer winners? while i agree with you that culture does impacts work but may be its not "indian" culture and more of a "company"culture. Having said that i don't see any contribution of india in sports, i don't know why.
  - aslkdjaslkdj 9y ago
    Their main national sport (cricket) is really only played in handful of countries. And in those countries (AU/NZ) soccer is still more popular.
  - wolco 9y ago
    They are one of the top nations for cricket. Famous stars like Sachin Tendulkar, Mahendra Singh Dhoni or Dada - Sourav Ganguly Checkout youtube for some amazing highlights.
rconti 9y ago
Yup. First company I worked for had a team in India and they couldn't do a damn thing. The next company had some REALLY great talent in India. Having local managers helped. Paying market rate instead of bottom dollar helped. Another problem with outsourcing to India is now so many companies do it just because XYZ other company does it -- no regard for quality. Just copying the moves someone else does isn't enough. You need to understand WHY and HOW to do it well.
- Clubber 9y ago
  Managers at the level that makes that decision get bonuses for cost cutting. The cheaper the firm, the bigger the bonus. By the time the house of cards crashed, it either wasn't their crash (sales problem) or they've jumped ship to cost-cut at another company.
digitalzombie 9y ago
> Cut the crap. India is a country of 1.3 billion people, don't peddle bullshit stereotypes. Not working hard doesn't come from the culture; it's quite the opposite if anything. Actually, I know this is anecdote but my buddy was an manager type position moved up from software and he had to deal with Indians. He had to go over cultural slides to how to deal with Indians and the slide explicitly talk about their world ethnics and how their culture view time. The time slide was super interesting and the few thing I recall from it. It was talking about setting time line for the offshore team. And when they say they will have it done, it can mean anything, and that you have to have them to explicitly state a real date. I'm not trying to shoot ya down or anything, just wanted to point out another experience in culture. The slides he showed me was suppose to be on the downlow too >___<. But the whole thing is about how to manage Indian programmers and many aspect of it was dealing with culture or how culture affects their actions.

oh_sigh 9y ago

Maybe it is something else, like the differing power-distance relationships that Americans and Indians have.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

I am part Indian (albeit ethnically, not culturally) and work in finance. I always had a great experience working with Indian bankers, investors and VCs. The stereotypes puzzled me. Then I spoke to a few IT outsourcing/consulting companies. It’s horrible. Starting sentences with “no” even when agreeing, jargon-laid bullshitting, lying about simple things, overt sexism (e.g. if my female colleague asks a question, the response is addressed to me), et cetera. I fully blame a small handful of firms for nurturing a toxic culture and then projecting it to the world. (Indian tech start-ups have, in my experience, a wonderful culture.)

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
hkmurakami 9y ago
From the outside looking in ( and a handful of anecdotal encounters and work experiences) I feel like the educated Indian workforce is bifurcated between one cluster of brilliant hard working people and another cluster of... Bullshitters who try to project the visage of knowing what's going on. But maybe that's because for better or for worse India does have an articulate culture of speaking up for yourself, and these two outlier groups just become memorable.
- shagie 9y ago
  It depends on what one's career goals are. From what I understand (I'm not Indian, but I've worked with many over the years), for a sizable portion of the workforce, the goal isn't to be senior programmer but rather management. The way you get to management is by having people report to you and then get a new job higher up on the ladder at another company (it is my understanding that promotions from within the company are difficult compared to hiring outsiders). One puts in time in grade, switching projects frequently to build up the resume. Unfortunately, this makes institutional knowledge at the client companies not something that is preserved easily. (anecdote: when I was laid off to be replaced by someone from India, the 12 years of how the system works was transferred in 4 weeks of 4h a day meetings, 5 days a week (that was painful)... keeping in touch with my old coworkers, the person who replaced me left 6 months later and explained everything about how my job worked and what they learned in just a few days... who left six months later and only did one day of information transfer) So, switch companies, go from developer to sr. developer in a year (2x 6 month projects) to team lead (with 5 people reporting - another year or so) to architect (with 3 team leads reporting - another year or so)... and you've got a manager. If someone is on the track "I want to be a manager", switching projects frequently and never actually diving too deeply into the project is probably the best approach. The technical people are harder to find. They're not switching jobs quickly and so they're unlikely to get hired into the project that the client sees. Maybe they're tapped as a "work on this 25%" but I know how that goes... it means one week out of the month you're catching up on everything for that project and trying to fend off context switches before you're not thinking about it for another month. For the technical people, many of them are able to find a visa and move to the US for some extended period of time. This contributes to a brain drain in India. Also the indentured servitude aspect of the H1B visa means that there is less mobility and again, its harder to meet these people in random places. They do exist - and I've worked with a number of them... but I've worked with far more people who are in a position for six months to a year and then moving on to another contract at another contracting company.
  - kamaal 9y ago
    This is spot on. The incentive system so much more promotes management careers that anybody who wishes to go down the tech path comes across as stupid. Its very common in services companies to treat tech people as somebody who don't have the chops to do prestigious management work. Do this for sufficient number of years and eventually you will have very few people who want to do any real work and most will want to be managers.
friedButter 9y ago
> Then I spoke to a few IT outsourcing/consulting companies You get what you pay for. The quality of low level employees in IT outsourcing companies (not just the Indian ones) is at par with (or lower than) American minimum wage workers

naravara 9y ago

>Maybe the firm you are dealing with doesn't pay the employees well enough, which in turn causes demotivation? This. I had the same complaint about the India based team I had to work with, until one of them came on rotation to the states, we had a beer together, and he told me all about the working environment they have there. Nightmarish commutes, extremely nitpicky and punitive performance management, no commitment to career development, limited benefits, brutal hours, and meagre pay even adjusted for Indian CoL. Under those conditions, it's no wonder people were hard to work with. They were overworked, held to stupid performance metrics that demoralized them, and were under the boot of a "beatings will continue until morale improves" management style. If you hire based only on cost, nickel and dime each other to maximize your value for money in the short term, and generally treat your workforce like chattel, it shouldn't be surprising when they're disengaged and unable to be as forward leaning as you would like.

Clubber 9y ago
Plus, massive turnover.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago

What makes you say this? Don't stereotypes come from something? Do you think it's a coincidence that a stereotypical Asian American is reserved, disciplined, and good at math, and that Asian Americans in America make considerably more than any other race[1]? Btw, "Cut the crap" is an unprofessional, unproductive way to start a conversation. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_wage_gap_in_the_United_... Edit: To those downvoting me, can you please explain? What did I say in my post that was inaccurate?

spaceseaman 9y ago
Stereotypes typically don't come from anything. The "stereotype" of an Asian male is someone who * can't talk to women * doesn't understand social skills * has poor hygiene / manners * values STEM above softer skills * values hard work and effort It's pointless to make these claims because such broad generalizations immediately break down the second you meet an Asian man. There's no way to know which (if any) of these stereotypes they uphold. Some of these sterotypes have a positive bend: Poor social skills imply that they are reserved. Valuing hard work makes you a disciplined person. etc. But these stereotypes are still bad. They lead people to make unfair assumptions about Asian men because they are Asian. There's plenty of literature out there about stereotypes and prejudice and especially about the "model minority" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Model_minority From there you may see why folks are downvoting you: > A common misconception is that the affected communities usually hold pride in their labeling as the model minority. The model minority stereotype is considered detrimental to relevant minority communities because it is used to justify the exclusion of minorities in the distribution of assistance programs, both public and private, as well as to understate or slight the achievements of individuals within that minority. Furthermore, the idea of the model minority pits minority groups against each other by implying that non-model groups are at fault for falling short of the model minority level of achievement and assimilation EDIT: And as a bonus (since that Wikipedia article is DAMN good) "Scientific studies have revealed that positive stereotypes have many negative and damaging consequences both socially and psychologically." The citations are in the article.
che_shirecat 9y ago

adrya407 9y ago

Since you are an Indian too, I think your remarks are kind of subjective and your reply a bit harsh, but I'll add more facts that sustain my point of view. >Not working hard doesn't come from the culture Yes it truly does. Since every individual has inherited from the environment and has been cultured that he needs to do just what he is told (the minimum), this is how he grows. >Maybe the firm you are dealing with doesn't pay the employees well enough You can't hide behind your finger with this excuse. If you want a raise you tend to work harder, do the extra mile, you defenly don't get a raise by doing the minimum. Also, if you are good at what you are doing but you are not happy with the salary then why accept the job in first place?

just_saying_it 9y ago
Assigning attributes to an entire country based on experience with a few people is poor logic. It is the same if someone worked with a few people at Google India or one of the IITs, and claimed all Indians are super smart and it comes from their culture.
newusertoday 9y ago
how do you explain the anamoly of indians in virtually all top jobs from ceo's of microsoft,google,pepsi etc. to pulitzer winners? while i agree with you that culture does impacts work but may be its not "indian" culture and more of a "company"culture. Having said that i don't see any contribution of india in sports, i don't know why.
- aslkdjaslkdj 9y ago
  Their main national sport (cricket) is really only played in handful of countries. And in those countries (AU/NZ) soccer is still more popular.
- wolco 9y ago
  They are one of the top nations for cricket. Famous stars like Sachin Tendulkar, Mahendra Singh Dhoni or Dada - Sourav Ganguly Checkout youtube for some amazing highlights.

rconti 9y ago

Yup. First company I worked for had a team in India and they couldn't do a damn thing. The next company had some REALLY great talent in India. Having local managers helped. Paying market rate instead of bottom dollar helped. Another problem with outsourcing to India is now so many companies do it just because XYZ other company does it -- no regard for quality. Just copying the moves someone else does isn't enough. You need to understand WHY and HOW to do it well.

Clubber 9y ago
Managers at the level that makes that decision get bonuses for cost cutting. The cheaper the firm, the bigger the bonus. By the time the house of cards crashed, it either wasn't their crash (sales problem) or they've jumped ship to cost-cut at another company.

digitalzombie 9y ago

> Cut the crap. India is a country of 1.3 billion people, don't peddle bullshit stereotypes. Not working hard doesn't come from the culture; it's quite the opposite if anything. Actually, I know this is anecdote but my buddy was an manager type position moved up from software and he had to deal with Indians. He had to go over cultural slides to how to deal with Indians and the slide explicitly talk about their world ethnics and how their culture view time. The time slide was super interesting and the few thing I recall from it. It was talking about setting time line for the offshore team. And when they say they will have it done, it can mean anything, and that you have to have them to explicitly state a real date. I'm not trying to shoot ya down or anything, just wanted to point out another experience in culture. The slides he showed me was suppose to be on the downlow too >___<. But the whole thing is about how to manage Indian programmers and many aspect of it was dealing with culture or how culture affects their actions.