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Your comment is a great example of the disconnect between people in this space and people not in this space. Do you actually think anyone in this space would be

Your comment is a great example of the disconnect between people in this space and people not in this space. Do you actually think anyone in this space would believe that weight spikes are tied to CHF in all cases? You don't diagnose CHF by weight. It's something you trend in known patients. Comments like this are one reason why doctors give zero shits about the potential of computing. Explaining even the basics of a narrow area of human physiology to some overly arrogant IT guy is maddening (arrogant is fine, for Pete's sake, it's not like doctors aren't arrogant). Yes, the doctors can be blamed for conflating computer scientists with the IT guy who came to replace their mouse. But the IT guy and the CS guy (always a guy) can both equally be blamed for their unholy arrogance. How many lives did you save today? Zero? Ok, at least I didn't spill any data (that I know of). This can go round, and round, and round. You have no idea how far down the problem goes. I know this because no one knows how far the problem goes. We sequence hundreds of thousands if not millions of genomes, and still we don't know. Do you really think we spend a decade in training and come out thinking everything is simple?! Now, on the flip side, doctors also don't even know how to frame their problems, in no small part because they're only required to take 2 semesters of calculus. And then most of them punch out of math as fast as possible. Computer scientists should be going to biology conferences. Go to ASCO. Pick a medical specialty, they have multiple conferences a year, I garauntee it. There's one or 10 in your city. If you want middle ground, look at microbiology, immunology, molecular biology. They use a fair number of quantitative methods (sequencing, mass spec, flow cytometry, etc).

hacker_9 9y ago
What an ironic comment - I tell a software developer that medical science isn't as easy as measuring weight changes, supporting the point that doctors need to do a lot more than that to come to a diagnosis, and then a doctor (I assume) tells me to STFU because.. oh, of what I originally said in the first place. What was your point here? I hope you don't make these kind of mistakes with actual patients.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  This is what I was responding to: > Do you think all weight spikes simply equate to having CHF? You can't just rely on such a basic measurement when dealing with an incredibly complex system such as the human body. Considering you were knowingly addressing someone who worked in the space and blew right past something you obviously knew within seconds (not all weight spikes equate to CHF), thinking there was even a remote possiblity they hadn't thought of that, despite having a physician on staff to discuss with. Your response here (as quoted) is exactly why doctors throw their hands in the air and wait for someone else to come along. You actually thought you had an insight and despite remonstration, you persist in thinking you outwitted everyone on this thread. That's the point. You're lack of humility coupled with your snowflake sensitivity is why we don't want to work with a lot of computer people. The sad fact that a lot of doctors also equate computer science with IT is another problem.
  - hacker_9 9y ago
    You would think OP would know that, but the original comment basically tells us all to measure our weight simply to check for CHF. If it were that simple we'd all do it I presume, but of course weight change can be a range of things. Many of which are not problematic. Hence why I pointed out that better measurement devices are needed. I've also got a feeling that it may just be you in particular that 'IT' don't like dealing with.
    - ncallaway 9y ago
      You're still missing killjoywashere's point. Their point was that _of course_ everyone involved (including the person you were originally replying to) knows that a weight-measurement is not sufficient to diagnose CHF. Literally everyone in the conversation has already presupposed that point. However, blhack working with a physician learned that it would be a super useful medical tool to have an automated mechanism for taking those weight measurements because it's a useful early indicator. Your response was exceptionally dismissive, given that there were people in that space who knew what they were doing and knew it was useful. Yet, you came by and in 10 seconds decided it wasn't useful and wasn't worth doing. So, what makes you more qualified to make that decision that blhack and the physician they were working with? Why are you so arrogant to assume that the physician who stated that would be useful was just wrong? Your insight wasn't particularly insightful, and you presented it in a way that was condescending and dismissive of others in the space.
jghn 9y ago
I'm a software guy in the healthcare space, albeit not medical devices. We see this problem all the time. Despite the fact that most of the people involved have degrees, often Phd level, in CS, Math, and Physics we see no end of other software folks from typical tech companies coming in and describing how we just don't know what we're doing and that we need big tech to come in and disrupt us. There's a reason we do things the way we do them and it's not because we're stupid and/or ignorant.
- 4gfewrreg 9y ago
  Ctrl+f "preventative care", 0 results. Gonna have to disagree with you.
jnordwick 9y ago
A doctor accusing other professions of being arrogant? That's rich.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  You mean where I said > I didn't spill any data (that I know of) > doctors also don't even know how to frame their problems, > most of them punch out of math as fast as possible.
  - jnordwick 9y ago
    How about the part where you said: > How many lives did you save today? Zero? Ok, STFU Last time I was at the hospital they seriously asked if I wanted Reiki. If you can get through med school and still believe in that, sorry If I don't have much respect for your education. Doctors and IT people are the two most arrogant professions I've ever come across, and I even work in finance.
    - killjoywashere 9y ago
      Thank you, point partially taken. I deleted the expletives. Have an upvote.
      - deleted 9y ago
        [deleted]
WhitneyLand 9y ago
Why on earth do you think you can generalize your anecdotal experience to conclude tech people are any more arrogant than doctors or staff in whatever field? We can agree there is a massive disconnect, but there is plenty of arrogance to go around and I’ve seen it on both sides in these situations. Moreover, whoever’s arrogance it is, is only one part of the problem, and I think not the largest one. Just the legal and regulatory hurdles alone pour molasses all over what would normally be a fast moving startup effort. Worse, some products or services have to worry about the reasons the bureaucracy exists in the first place: What level of risk mitigation is sufficient to keep from killing people? Here’s a hint, it’s a level that doesn’t speed up your time to market. There can also be a lot of time wasted by people who may be very talelented within their specialties, but require lots of hand holding to ramp up on the medical issues, technologies, product design and user experience (which still always exist), and business strategies depending on their background. Ideally you have at least one person with great expertise in one, and training and/or a knack for the others, who can see the big picture, and everyone else must make honest assesments of where they can really add the most value. We always talk around here about how ideas are cheap and the team and execution are what matter. Based on some time I’ve spent with doctors and entrepreneurs in these scenarios, my impression is that maxim is even more apt in this space.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  I have been working with some extremely smart, hard working computer scientists on a real, hard problem in this space, a problem I've been working on for 6 years. Easily 20 years of work left. I have a great deal of respect for what you are capable of. The white hot fury was directed at the sophmoric response of hacker_9 which I then used as an exemplar of a few trends in behavior I have watched for over a decade.
  - WhitneyLand 9y ago
    I understand your frustration, I believe your experience, no personal attack was intended. I only hope we can agree that generalizations about good and bad character traits is tricky business, even if all this was not anecdotal. I hope there can be more agreement because there truly is life changing work that needs to be done, but as with so many things in life, it sometimes requires effort to remember our previos experiences may not always predict our future ones.
frahs 9y ago
I agree that his comment was not in good taste, but I think he must have simply misread or skimmed the parent comment, or misunderstood. Your comment is a great example of unnecessary escalation. He made a mistake, no need to pin all this angst about the disconnect between doctors and engineers on one mistaken comment on the internet. While I think the parent commenter should apologize, I think ideally you should too, this is blowing things out of proportions and that's not the kind of dialogue I like to see on HN, or anywhere on the internet.
- killjoywashere 9y ago
  Fair enough, happy to go first. I hearby apologize for escalating, although the disconnect and it sources stand. What is sufficient remedy? Shall I delete my comments?
  - whiddershins 9y ago
    chill. I personally don't think you really escalated all that much, and outside of the casual misandry (hehe, couldn't resist piling on with another complaint) I got genuine value from reading your comment.

hacker_9 9y ago

What an ironic comment - I tell a software developer that medical science isn't as easy as measuring weight changes, supporting the point that doctors need to do a lot more than that to come to a diagnosis, and then a doctor (I assume) tells me to STFU because.. oh, of what I originally said in the first place. What was your point here? I hope you don't make these kind of mistakes with actual patients.

killjoywashere 9y ago
This is what I was responding to: > Do you think all weight spikes simply equate to having CHF? You can't just rely on such a basic measurement when dealing with an incredibly complex system such as the human body. Considering you were knowingly addressing someone who worked in the space and blew right past something you obviously knew within seconds (not all weight spikes equate to CHF), thinking there was even a remote possiblity they hadn't thought of that, despite having a physician on staff to discuss with. Your response here (as quoted) is exactly why doctors throw their hands in the air and wait for someone else to come along. You actually thought you had an insight and despite remonstration, you persist in thinking you outwitted everyone on this thread. That's the point. You're lack of humility coupled with your snowflake sensitivity is why we don't want to work with a lot of computer people. The sad fact that a lot of doctors also equate computer science with IT is another problem.
- hacker_9 9y ago
  You would think OP would know that, but the original comment basically tells us all to measure our weight simply to check for CHF. If it were that simple we'd all do it I presume, but of course weight change can be a range of things. Many of which are not problematic. Hence why I pointed out that better measurement devices are needed. I've also got a feeling that it may just be you in particular that 'IT' don't like dealing with.
  - ncallaway 9y ago
    You're still missing killjoywashere's point. Their point was that _of course_ everyone involved (including the person you were originally replying to) knows that a weight-measurement is not sufficient to diagnose CHF. Literally everyone in the conversation has already presupposed that point. However, blhack working with a physician learned that it would be a super useful medical tool to have an automated mechanism for taking those weight measurements because it's a useful early indicator. Your response was exceptionally dismissive, given that there were people in that space who knew what they were doing and knew it was useful. Yet, you came by and in 10 seconds decided it wasn't useful and wasn't worth doing. So, what makes you more qualified to make that decision that blhack and the physician they were working with? Why are you so arrogant to assume that the physician who stated that would be useful was just wrong? Your insight wasn't particularly insightful, and you presented it in a way that was condescending and dismissive of others in the space.

jghn 9y ago

I'm a software guy in the healthcare space, albeit not medical devices. We see this problem all the time. Despite the fact that most of the people involved have degrees, often Phd level, in CS, Math, and Physics we see no end of other software folks from typical tech companies coming in and describing how we just don't know what we're doing and that we need big tech to come in and disrupt us. There's a reason we do things the way we do them and it's not because we're stupid and/or ignorant.

4gfewrreg 9y ago
Ctrl+f "preventative care", 0 results. Gonna have to disagree with you.

jnordwick 9y ago

A doctor accusing other professions of being arrogant? That's rich.

killjoywashere 9y ago
You mean where I said > I didn't spill any data (that I know of) > doctors also don't even know how to frame their problems, > most of them punch out of math as fast as possible.
- jnordwick 9y ago
  How about the part where you said: > How many lives did you save today? Zero? Ok, STFU Last time I was at the hospital they seriously asked if I wanted Reiki. If you can get through med school and still believe in that, sorry If I don't have much respect for your education. Doctors and IT people are the two most arrogant professions I've ever come across, and I even work in finance.
  - killjoywashere 9y ago
    Thank you, point partially taken. I deleted the expletives. Have an upvote.
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]

WhitneyLand 9y ago

Why on earth do you think you can generalize your anecdotal experience to conclude tech people are any more arrogant than doctors or staff in whatever field? We can agree there is a massive disconnect, but there is plenty of arrogance to go around and I’ve seen it on both sides in these situations. Moreover, whoever’s arrogance it is, is only one part of the problem, and I think not the largest one. Just the legal and regulatory hurdles alone pour molasses all over what would normally be a fast moving startup effort. Worse, some products or services have to worry about the reasons the bureaucracy exists in the first place: What level of risk mitigation is sufficient to keep from killing people? Here’s a hint, it’s a level that doesn’t speed up your time to market. There can also be a lot of time wasted by people who may be very talelented within their specialties, but require lots of hand holding to ramp up on the medical issues, technologies, product design and user experience (which still always exist), and business strategies depending on their background. Ideally you have at least one person with great expertise in one, and training and/or a knack for the others, who can see the big picture, and everyone else must make honest assesments of where they can really add the most value. We always talk around here about how ideas are cheap and the team and execution are what matter. Based on some time I’ve spent with doctors and entrepreneurs in these scenarios, my impression is that maxim is even more apt in this space.

killjoywashere 9y ago
I have been working with some extremely smart, hard working computer scientists on a real, hard problem in this space, a problem I've been working on for 6 years. Easily 20 years of work left. I have a great deal of respect for what you are capable of. The white hot fury was directed at the sophmoric response of hacker_9 which I then used as an exemplar of a few trends in behavior I have watched for over a decade.
- WhitneyLand 9y ago
  I understand your frustration, I believe your experience, no personal attack was intended. I only hope we can agree that generalizations about good and bad character traits is tricky business, even if all this was not anecdotal. I hope there can be more agreement because there truly is life changing work that needs to be done, but as with so many things in life, it sometimes requires effort to remember our previos experiences may not always predict our future ones.

frahs 9y ago

I agree that his comment was not in good taste, but I think he must have simply misread or skimmed the parent comment, or misunderstood. Your comment is a great example of unnecessary escalation. He made a mistake, no need to pin all this angst about the disconnect between doctors and engineers on one mistaken comment on the internet. While I think the parent commenter should apologize, I think ideally you should too, this is blowing things out of proportions and that's not the kind of dialogue I like to see on HN, or anywhere on the internet.

killjoywashere 9y ago
Fair enough, happy to go first. I hearby apologize for escalating, although the disconnect and it sources stand. What is sufficient remedy? Shall I delete my comments?
- whiddershins 9y ago
  chill. I personally don't think you really escalated all that much, and outside of the casual misandry (hehe, couldn't resist piling on with another complaint) I got genuine value from reading your comment.