5 ms·

Esperanto was invented in an explicitly Eurocentric colonialist context. A nice early Esperanto song goes: En densa Afrika ĝangalo sovaĝaj nigruloj sen Di' ja

Esperanto was invented in an explicitly Eurocentric colonialist context. A nice early Esperanto song goes: En densa Afrika ĝangalo sovaĝaj nigruloj sen Di' jam solvis la lingvan problemon, per tam-tam' disiĝas la kri'... This sounds very ominous now.

cobbzilla 9y ago
Wow, I didn't think about its origins that way at all, but it makes sense given the timing/context of how it began. For the unenlightened (like me), Google Translate renders this as: "In a dense African jungle savage negroes without Di 'have already solved the linguistic problem, by so-called'" [1] Yeah, not sure if I'd say "ominous", but it's definitely a double-take. It reminds me a bit of the Indian scene from Disney's Peter Pan (1953) [2]. When it was made, I guess it was supposed to evoke a sense of wonder about the fantasy/dreamlike-nature of their adventure. But in the modern day, it just comes off as "wow, that's incredibly offensive." What's funny is the cultural/time context. I saw the Peter Pan film as a child (in the 1980s) and I do not remember thinking it was patently offensive. In fact, iirc in US in the 80's it was not considered politically incorrect to use phrases like "Indian giver" or play games like "Cowboys and Indians" with your friends, etc. I think Esperanto's early history might also suffer from this sort of cultural baggage. [1] https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/En%20densa%20Afrika%20%C4%9Dangalo%20sova%C4%9Daj%20nigruloj%20sen%20Di'%20jam%20solvis%20la%20lingvan%20problemon%2C%20per%20tam-tam'%20disi%C4%9Das%20la%20kri' https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/En%20densa%20Afrika%20... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1953_film)#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1953_film)#Controve...
- antognini 9y ago
  "Di'" is a poetic rendering of "Dio", or God.
  - cobbzilla 9y ago
    Thanks. And now it's even worse; the phrase they were going for (and Google didn't pick up) must have been something like "godless savages". Just lovely.
  - Zardoz84 9y ago
    Suddenly JoJo's have more sense now.
- soperj 9y ago
  I have young kids and watched Peter Pan recently. My kids actually thought nothing of it, even when I cringed. I think the offensiveness of it would never have been obvious to you as a kid.
  - cobbzilla 9y ago
    Maybe my parents were cringing when we watched it decades ago, I don't remember. I'm curious how old your kids are, and what region of the US you're in? My SF Bay Area-schooled kids called out the blatant racism at age 7/8; call it environmental factors if you will.
    - soperj 9y ago
      Canada. 5 year old. (My 2 year old doesn't really count here haha) I know that my parents definitely did not watch the movie with us.
      - cobbzilla 9y ago
        Thanks and please forgive my assumption that you were in the US. Apparently I still have some work to do on my own inappropriate presumptions :/ I'm doubtful my kids would have noticed anything awry at age 5, and definitely not at age 2!
- colanderman 9y ago
  "per tam-tam' disiĝas la kri'" should be translated "the cry [shout] is broadcast by tom-tom". One thing I've noticed about the Esperanto community is that, owing to its small size, it is very easy to make one's voice heard. So you get a lot of, "rough edges" shall we say, in the published material. (Ex: I came across about a year ago at an Esperanto book sale a book of jokes or "ŝercoj". Unfortunately almost without exception the jokes were crude and sexist. I don't know why it was even up for sale, alongside works of much higher quality.)
- schoen 9y ago
  Apart from the thing that another commenter has clarified about tom-toms, "sen Di'" is an abbreviation of "sen Dio" 'Godless'. Edit: I just noticed that still another commenter also already clarified this part too.
ruricolist 9y ago
This is from "La lingua por ni": https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_lingvo_por_ni https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_lingvo_por_ni

cobbzilla 9y ago

Wow, I didn't think about its origins that way at all, but it makes sense given the timing/context of how it began. For the unenlightened (like me), Google Translate renders this as: "In a dense African jungle savage negroes without Di 'have already solved the linguistic problem, by so-called'" [1] Yeah, not sure if I'd say "ominous", but it's definitely a double-take. It reminds me a bit of the Indian scene from Disney's Peter Pan (1953) [2]. When it was made, I guess it was supposed to evoke a sense of wonder about the fantasy/dreamlike-nature of their adventure. But in the modern day, it just comes off as "wow, that's incredibly offensive." What's funny is the cultural/time context. I saw the Peter Pan film as a child (in the 1980s) and I do not remember thinking it was patently offensive. In fact, iirc in US in the 80's it was not considered politically incorrect to use phrases like "Indian giver" or play games like "Cowboys and Indians" with your friends, etc. I think Esperanto's early history might also suffer from this sort of cultural baggage. [1] https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/En%20densa%20Afrika%20%C4%9Dangalo%20sova%C4%9Daj%20nigruloj%20sen%20Di'%20jam%20solvis%20la%20lingvan%20problemon%2C%20per%20tam-tam'%20disi%C4%9Das%20la%20kri' https://translate.google.com/#auto/en/En%20densa%20Afrika%20... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1953_film)#Controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Pan_(1953_film)#Controve...

antognini 9y ago
"Di'" is a poetic rendering of "Dio", or God.
- cobbzilla 9y ago
  Thanks. And now it's even worse; the phrase they were going for (and Google didn't pick up) must have been something like "godless savages". Just lovely.
- Zardoz84 9y ago
  Suddenly JoJo's have more sense now.
soperj 9y ago
I have young kids and watched Peter Pan recently. My kids actually thought nothing of it, even when I cringed. I think the offensiveness of it would never have been obvious to you as a kid.
- cobbzilla 9y ago
  Maybe my parents were cringing when we watched it decades ago, I don't remember. I'm curious how old your kids are, and what region of the US you're in? My SF Bay Area-schooled kids called out the blatant racism at age 7/8; call it environmental factors if you will.
  - soperj 9y ago
    Canada. 5 year old. (My 2 year old doesn't really count here haha) I know that my parents definitely did not watch the movie with us.
    - cobbzilla 9y ago
      Thanks and please forgive my assumption that you were in the US. Apparently I still have some work to do on my own inappropriate presumptions :/ I'm doubtful my kids would have noticed anything awry at age 5, and definitely not at age 2!
colanderman 9y ago
"per tam-tam' disiĝas la kri'" should be translated "the cry [shout] is broadcast by tom-tom". One thing I've noticed about the Esperanto community is that, owing to its small size, it is very easy to make one's voice heard. So you get a lot of, "rough edges" shall we say, in the published material. (Ex: I came across about a year ago at an Esperanto book sale a book of jokes or "ŝercoj". Unfortunately almost without exception the jokes were crude and sexist. I don't know why it was even up for sale, alongside works of much higher quality.)
schoen 9y ago
Apart from the thing that another commenter has clarified about tom-toms, "sen Di'" is an abbreviation of "sen Dio" 'Godless'. Edit: I just noticed that still another commenter also already clarified this part too.

ruricolist 9y ago

This is from "La lingua por ni": https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_lingvo_por_ni https://eo.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_lingvo_por_ni