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>> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings > Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater sta

>> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings > Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater standards of evidence than just a subjective feeling. For example there seems to be wide consensus in medicine that those with body dysmorphic disorder are to be denied amputation of healthy limbs. I'm not talking about the medical treatment. My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? You implied they do, but haven't explained why. >> Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry > To which the equivalent conditions would be the various eating disorders, that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? > And unless there is a disorder like this, it's easy enough to gain a frame of reference, we all know what it's like to be hungry vs. not hungry. I can't parse the meaning of this sentence.

yipopov 9y ago
> I'm not talking about the medical treatment. > My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? I don't know. I'm sure many genuinely feel this way and I'm sure there are those who pretend in order to fit in, but then again you can say that about anything. What's in my opinion much more interesting is how to deal with it in the public forum. I think it's fair to require something more than just a subjective feeling in order to treat these people as being of the opposite sex, up to and including performing surgeries on them to make them look the part. > You implied they do, but haven't explained why. I can't possibly tell what people are thinking, I can only discuss what people say and do. > that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? I think they are distinct conditions with distinct causes and treatments, but I think in both cases I think treatment should value physical facts over subjective feelings, which is an uncontroversial position for eating disorders, but a controversial one for gender dysphoria. > I can't parse the meaning of this sentence. I mean that even without an external frame of reference you do have a perfectly good internal one. Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like. Most people. There are of course some people who don't, in either direction, for various reasons e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ Common side effect of hypo- or hyper-thyroidism, too.

yipopov 9y ago

> I'm not talking about the medical treatment. > My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? I don't know. I'm sure many genuinely feel this way and I'm sure there are those who pretend in order to fit in, but then again you can say that about anything. What's in my opinion much more interesting is how to deal with it in the public forum. I think it's fair to require something more than just a subjective feeling in order to treat these people as being of the opposite sex, up to and including performing surgeries on them to make them look the part. > You implied they do, but haven't explained why. I can't possibly tell what people are thinking, I can only discuss what people say and do. > that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? I think they are distinct conditions with distinct causes and treatments, but I think in both cases I think treatment should value physical facts over subjective feelings, which is an uncontroversial position for eating disorders, but a controversial one for gender dysphoria. > I can't parse the meaning of this sentence. I mean that even without an external frame of reference you do have a perfectly good internal one. Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like.

pjc50 9y ago
> Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like. Most people. There are of course some people who don't, in either direction, for various reasons e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ Common side effect of hypo- or hyper-thyroidism, too.