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I don't think they're scrambling. The A350 is their 787 competitor and looks amazing. Can't wait to try it out.

code4tee 9y ago
Um, there’s 5 787s flying around for every A350. On the future book Boeing also has around 50% more 787 orders than Airbus has A350. So yeah, I’d call that being a bit behind in that market segment.
- _Codemonkeyism 9y ago
  It's 1250 to 850 orders.
  - jonknee 9y ago
    And it's 625 to 133 deliveries...
    - masklinn 9y ago
      And it's 2011 to 2015...
  - 24gttghh 9y ago
    850 x .5 = 425 850 + 425 = 1275 Looks pretty damn close to 50% more orders for Boeing, so I'm not sure what you are implying.
    - thisacctforreal 9y ago
      protip: 1250 / 850 = 1.4706, ie 147%
- tolien 9y ago
  The 787 first flew 4 years earlier too, cost 3x as much to develop and aren’t selling for three times the price. To the end of last month there were 858 orders (133 delivered) for the A350 versus 1287 (625 delivered) for the Dreamliner. Considering the 787 had a head start (787 introduced in 2011, A350 XWB in 2015), the pressure’s on Airbus to keep ramping up deliveries (the last few years it looks like Boeing’s stabilised at ~130 per year) but that gap’s going to shrink pretty quickly…
  - yardie 9y ago
    The A350XWB was their second attempt. The original A350 and 787 were introduced around the same time. But the all aluminum A350 was DOA compared to the flashy new carbon fiber 787. It showed in the order books as well, no one wanted their warmed over A350. TL;DR the 787 didn't have a 4 year head start. The A350 arrived 4 years late after a complete redesign.
    - tolien 9y ago
      That's all true but I don't see how it refutes what I said. The 787's been in production and delivering aircraft for 4 years longer than the A350 XWB, which is still ramping up [1]. If that's not a head start when we're comparing delivered aircraft between the two then I don't know what is; the fact that Airbus let Boeing have that lead by wasting their time trying to hawk an A330 with revised wings and engines is neither here nor there. > Airbus plans to increase its production rate from 10 monthly in 2018 to 13 monthly from 2019, while the Boeing 787 production will increase from 12 to 14 per month in 2019, and six A330 are produced monthly. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350_XWB#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350_XWB#Production
    - xvf22 9y ago
      And yet they managed to save the program and avoid the lithium battery issues of the 787 all while not being anywhere near as overweight as the 787 was upon introduction.
avh02 9y ago
Flew the A350 and 787 a week apart (recently, via Qatar) - the A350 is a surprisingly quiet machine on the inside. The 787's larger windows (combined with being tall) means I get an almost 360 view around the plane through windows around me over people's heads (until they dim everybody's windows by default * shakes fist * )
- samfisher83 9y ago
  The 787 windows seem to block cell phone signals. Their tinting technology seems a a little unnecessary.
  - myrandomcomment 9y ago
    The reason for the tinting is really simple - weight. You have to be able to shade the windows and doing this way is less weight then have pull down screens. Everything in aircraft design here comes down to weight reduction.
    - avh02 9y ago
      I also think giving crew control is a factor. Rather than asking/telling individuals to open their shades you just control it. I guess this makes compliance with regulation easier.
    - samfisher83 9y ago
      Lets say there are 52 windows and each shade weight 2 pounds which I don't think they do. That is 104 pounds on a 380,000lb aircraft. That is .02% of the weight of the aircraft.
      - chiph 9y ago
        There's also the cleaning and maintenance aspects. I would guess the pull-down shades broke/tore more often than the dimming technology fails (repairing either would require pulling the seat row and wall panel to get access, so more reliable == win)
dingaling 9y ago
> The A350 is their 787 competitor and looks amazing The A350 is considerably bigger than the 787, it actually competes against the 777 ( original and X ). The 787-8 and -9 have the same floor area as the much older Airbus A330-200 and -300 respectively. Airbus doesn't have a direct rival to the 787 other than the warmed-over A330Neo.
gok 9y ago
Size-wise the A350 is more like a 777; the 787 is more directly competitive with A330neo. Are they scrambling? Not really. Boeing is making a fair amount more money than Airbus but they’re producing about the same number of planes (Airbus probably has a slight edge in order count). Airbus was formed as a program to address Europe’s concern about relying on North America for airliners. It’s not clear even today that they really care about actually making money from selling airplanes.

Um, there’s 5 787s flying around for every A350. On the future book Boeing also has around 50% more 787 orders than Airbus has A350. So yeah, I’d call that being a bit behind in that market segment.

_Codemonkeyism 9y ago
It's 1250 to 850 orders.
- jonknee 9y ago
  And it's 625 to 133 deliveries...
  - masklinn 9y ago
    And it's 2011 to 2015...
- 24gttghh 9y ago
  850 x .5 = 425 850 + 425 = 1275 Looks pretty damn close to 50% more orders for Boeing, so I'm not sure what you are implying.
  - thisacctforreal 9y ago
    protip: 1250 / 850 = 1.4706, ie 147%
tolien 9y ago
The 787 first flew 4 years earlier too, cost 3x as much to develop and aren’t selling for three times the price. To the end of last month there were 858 orders (133 delivered) for the A350 versus 1287 (625 delivered) for the Dreamliner. Considering the 787 had a head start (787 introduced in 2011, A350 XWB in 2015), the pressure’s on Airbus to keep ramping up deliveries (the last few years it looks like Boeing’s stabilised at ~130 per year) but that gap’s going to shrink pretty quickly…
- yardie 9y ago
  The A350XWB was their second attempt. The original A350 and 787 were introduced around the same time. But the all aluminum A350 was DOA compared to the flashy new carbon fiber 787. It showed in the order books as well, no one wanted their warmed over A350. TL;DR the 787 didn't have a 4 year head start. The A350 arrived 4 years late after a complete redesign.
  - tolien 9y ago
    That's all true but I don't see how it refutes what I said. The 787's been in production and delivering aircraft for 4 years longer than the A350 XWB, which is still ramping up [1]. If that's not a head start when we're comparing delivered aircraft between the two then I don't know what is; the fact that Airbus let Boeing have that lead by wasting their time trying to hawk an A330 with revised wings and engines is neither here nor there. > Airbus plans to increase its production rate from 10 monthly in 2018 to 13 monthly from 2019, while the Boeing 787 production will increase from 12 to 14 per month in 2019, and six A330 are produced monthly. 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350_XWB#Production https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Airbus_A350_XWB#Production
  - xvf22 9y ago
    And yet they managed to save the program and avoid the lithium battery issues of the 787 all while not being anywhere near as overweight as the 787 was upon introduction.

avh02 9y ago

Flew the A350 and 787 a week apart (recently, via Qatar) - the A350 is a surprisingly quiet machine on the inside. The 787's larger windows (combined with being tall) means I get an almost 360 view around the plane through windows around me over people's heads (until they dim everybody's windows by default * shakes fist * )

samfisher83 9y ago
The 787 windows seem to block cell phone signals. Their tinting technology seems a a little unnecessary.
- myrandomcomment 9y ago
  The reason for the tinting is really simple - weight. You have to be able to shade the windows and doing this way is less weight then have pull down screens. Everything in aircraft design here comes down to weight reduction.
  - avh02 9y ago
    I also think giving crew control is a factor. Rather than asking/telling individuals to open their shades you just control it. I guess this makes compliance with regulation easier.
  - samfisher83 9y ago
    Lets say there are 52 windows and each shade weight 2 pounds which I don't think they do. That is 104 pounds on a 380,000lb aircraft. That is .02% of the weight of the aircraft.
    - chiph 9y ago
      There's also the cleaning and maintenance aspects. I would guess the pull-down shades broke/tore more often than the dimming technology fails (repairing either would require pulling the seat row and wall panel to get access, so more reliable == win)

dingaling 9y ago

> The A350 is their 787 competitor and looks amazing The A350 is considerably bigger than the 787, it actually competes against the 777 ( original and X ). The 787-8 and -9 have the same floor area as the much older Airbus A330-200 and -300 respectively. Airbus doesn't have a direct rival to the 787 other than the warmed-over A330Neo.

gok 9y ago

Size-wise the A350 is more like a 777; the 787 is more directly competitive with A330neo. Are they scrambling? Not really. Boeing is making a fair amount more money than Airbus but they’re producing about the same number of planes (Airbus probably has a slight edge in order count). Airbus was formed as a program to address Europe’s concern about relying on North America for airliners. It’s not clear even today that they really care about actually making money from selling airplanes.