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> despite of course not having any frame of reference for those feelings the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings. You

> despite of course not having any frame of reference for those feelings the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings. You seem to be implying that it's obvious that they do. Why? Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry, that it's some sort of innate reporting that doesn't require an external frame of reference. Or like the feeling that you're attracted to either males or females, or both. That seems to be just there, coming from inside. Personally, I don't know the answer. I don't know if there's any relevant research, but on the face of it at least, it's not obvious that it should be one way or the other.

yipopov 9y ago
> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater standards of evidence than just a subjective feeling. For example there seems to be wide consensus in medicine that those with body dysmorphic disorder are to be denied amputation of healthy limbs. > Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry To which the equivalent conditions would be the various eating disorders, where medical efforts seem to be focused on restoring normal eating patterns rather than reinforcing feelings of being either too hungry or not hungry enough. And unless there is a disorder like this, it's easy enough to gain a frame of reference, we all know what it's like to be hungry vs. not hungry.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  >> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings > Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater standards of evidence than just a subjective feeling. For example there seems to be wide consensus in medicine that those with body dysmorphic disorder are to be denied amputation of healthy limbs. I'm not talking about the medical treatment. My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? You implied they do, but haven't explained why. >> Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry > To which the equivalent conditions would be the various eating disorders, that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? > And unless there is a disorder like this, it's easy enough to gain a frame of reference, we all know what it's like to be hungry vs. not hungry. I can't parse the meaning of this sentence.
  - yipopov 9y ago
    > I'm not talking about the medical treatment. > My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? I don't know. I'm sure many genuinely feel this way and I'm sure there are those who pretend in order to fit in, but then again you can say that about anything. What's in my opinion much more interesting is how to deal with it in the public forum. I think it's fair to require something more than just a subjective feeling in order to treat these people as being of the opposite sex, up to and including performing surgeries on them to make them look the part. > You implied they do, but haven't explained why. I can't possibly tell what people are thinking, I can only discuss what people say and do. > that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? I think they are distinct conditions with distinct causes and treatments, but I think in both cases I think treatment should value physical facts over subjective feelings, which is an uncontroversial position for eating disorders, but a controversial one for gender dysphoria. > I can't parse the meaning of this sentence. I mean that even without an external frame of reference you do have a perfectly good internal one. Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like.
    - pjc50 9y ago
      > Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like. Most people. There are of course some people who don't, in either direction, for various reasons e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ Common side effect of hypo- or hyper-thyroidism, too.
cristianpascu 9y ago
I don't have the feeling I am a man. I am a man by the definition we all(used to) work with. It's not a word encompassing a set of feelings or doings. If one wishes to use the word "man" for something else, question is: why the same word? If someone with a vagina and breasts says she is a man, I have to ask: how do you know? I don't know what the man next to me feels like or thinks. I could not possibly identify as his way of being. Let alone a biological woman. And seems that no one really cares about the theoretical issues we, transphobic people, have in accepting such views. We're just that. And problem is if our daughters or sons will come one day saying they're transgender, they will have no arguments, but just hurt feelings and the requirement to accept them as they are, or believe to be. We, as parents, may do so out of love. But others will not. And we, as parents, will have to accept the high risk of suicide for a view that has no sane arguments behind.
- jamesrcole 9y ago
  > And problem is if our daughters or sons will come one day saying they're transgender, they will have no arguments, but just hurt feelings... I'm not sure why you say hurt feelings, rather than just "feelings". On a separate note, historically, the medical profession has been terrible at ignoring or dismissing real issues that people have faced because we didn't have an understanding of them at the time. There's a very strong positivist bent that, if we don't formally understand an issue then it doesn't exist. Which completely ignores the fact that our knowledge of the body and brain and all their complexities (and all the ways they can vary and go wrong and so forth) was and is quite incomplete. The attitude that, if we don't have an objective theoretical account of some mental/physical then the right thing to do is basically discount its reality has led to so much needless suffering. This of course is not itself any evidence that someone's claims about themselves is true, but it is something that should always be seriously taken into consideration.
- pjc50 9y ago
  > And we, as parents, will have to accept the high risk of suicide for a view that has no sane arguments behind. This is a risk of depression as well, and refusing to accept that someone is depressed does not make them any less likely to commit suicide.

yipopov 9y ago

> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater standards of evidence than just a subjective feeling. For example there seems to be wide consensus in medicine that those with body dysmorphic disorder are to be denied amputation of healthy limbs. > Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry To which the equivalent conditions would be the various eating disorders, where medical efforts seem to be focused on restoring normal eating patterns rather than reinforcing feelings of being either too hungry or not hungry enough. And unless there is a disorder like this, it's easy enough to gain a frame of reference, we all know what it's like to be hungry vs. not hungry.

jamesrcole 9y ago
>> the question hinges on whether they need a frame of reference for those feelings > Why not? Just about every other medical treatment require far greater standards of evidence than just a subjective feeling. For example there seems to be wide consensus in medicine that those with body dysmorphic disorder are to be denied amputation of healthy limbs. I'm not talking about the medical treatment. My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? You implied they do, but haven't explained why. >> Perhaps it is like the feeling that you're hungry > To which the equivalent conditions would be the various eating disorders, that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? > And unless there is a disorder like this, it's easy enough to gain a frame of reference, we all know what it's like to be hungry vs. not hungry. I can't parse the meaning of this sentence.
- yipopov 9y ago
  > I'm not talking about the medical treatment. > My question was why do you believe those people need an external frame of reference to know whether those feelings are correct or not? I don't know. I'm sure many genuinely feel this way and I'm sure there are those who pretend in order to fit in, but then again you can say that about anything. What's in my opinion much more interesting is how to deal with it in the public forum. I think it's fair to require something more than just a subjective feeling in order to treat these people as being of the opposite sex, up to and including performing surgeries on them to make them look the part. > You implied they do, but haven't explained why. I can't possibly tell what people are thinking, I can only discuss what people say and do. > that statement assumes your position on the issue in question. Is it like an eating disorder or not? I think they are distinct conditions with distinct causes and treatments, but I think in both cases I think treatment should value physical facts over subjective feelings, which is an uncontroversial position for eating disorders, but a controversial one for gender dysphoria. > I can't parse the meaning of this sentence. I mean that even without an external frame of reference you do have a perfectly good internal one. Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like.
  - pjc50 9y ago
    > Most people alternate between being hungry and not being hungry several times a day and know perfectly well what either feels like. Most people. There are of course some people who don't, in either direction, for various reasons e.g. https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ https://www.nhs.uk/conditions/prader-willi-syndrome/ Common side effect of hypo- or hyper-thyroidism, too.

cristianpascu 9y ago

I don't have the feeling I am a man. I am a man by the definition we all(used to) work with. It's not a word encompassing a set of feelings or doings. If one wishes to use the word "man" for something else, question is: why the same word? If someone with a vagina and breasts says she is a man, I have to ask: how do you know? I don't know what the man next to me feels like or thinks. I could not possibly identify as his way of being. Let alone a biological woman. And seems that no one really cares about the theoretical issues we, transphobic people, have in accepting such views. We're just that. And problem is if our daughters or sons will come one day saying they're transgender, they will have no arguments, but just hurt feelings and the requirement to accept them as they are, or believe to be. We, as parents, may do so out of love. But others will not. And we, as parents, will have to accept the high risk of suicide for a view that has no sane arguments behind.

jamesrcole 9y ago
> And problem is if our daughters or sons will come one day saying they're transgender, they will have no arguments, but just hurt feelings... I'm not sure why you say hurt feelings, rather than just "feelings". On a separate note, historically, the medical profession has been terrible at ignoring or dismissing real issues that people have faced because we didn't have an understanding of them at the time. There's a very strong positivist bent that, if we don't formally understand an issue then it doesn't exist. Which completely ignores the fact that our knowledge of the body and brain and all their complexities (and all the ways they can vary and go wrong and so forth) was and is quite incomplete. The attitude that, if we don't have an objective theoretical account of some mental/physical then the right thing to do is basically discount its reality has led to so much needless suffering. This of course is not itself any evidence that someone's claims about themselves is true, but it is something that should always be seriously taken into consideration.
pjc50 9y ago
> And we, as parents, will have to accept the high risk of suicide for a view that has no sane arguments behind. This is a risk of depression as well, and refusing to accept that someone is depressed does not make them any less likely to commit suicide.