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Quite right. Israel's El Al simply profiles everyone that flies and by doing so they obviate the need to use stupid, expensive equipment that does nothing other

Quite right. Israel's El Al simply profiles everyone that flies and by doing so they obviate the need to use stupid, expensive equipment that does nothing other than bottleneck airports and cause frustration. The Israelis are the best in the world at what they do regarding air security. The West has considered using the same techniques and they likely should. I'm not opposed to profiling if the person fits the profile. Better profiling than dead innocents. People do not have the right to not be offended. I get the heavy hand for some reason every time I fly and I'm literally the grey man, but I understand and go along with it. I'm also squeeky clean from a legal standpoint.

brador 9y ago
Who decides the profiles?
alexeldeib 9y ago
I agree broadly that the Israeli model seems the one to follow. My understanding differs, however, in that it's not strictly profiling in the sense that carries heavy negative connotations in the US. I haven't traveled to Israel so can't comment, but I understand that in "profiling" the focus is on more objective metrics than an American might think when they hear the word -- e.g., physiological responses (sweating, increased heartrate, nervousness), consistency under questioning, etc. If that's not the case, would you mind providing some details about your own experience, since you mentioned being pulled aside repeatedly?
- username223 9y ago
  > physiological responses (sweating, increased heartrate, nervousness), consistency under questioning, etc. Is this what Canadian border guards are supposed to be doing? I hate dealing with them, and therefore minimize my border crossings. I just want to pour money into the Canadian economy as a tourist from time to time, and actual Canadian cops (RCMP) are much less aggressive than their US counterparts, but the border crossing is almost always unnecessarily miserable.
- stevenjohns 9y ago
  None of those are the metrics they use. Despite being an Australian citizen with a very clean record, as well as having a very Western name, I was red flagged before I even arrived because of my country of birth. With El Al, you're interrogated before you board the plane. When you go to check in, there is a "pre check-in" where you show staff your passport and they check your name off against a paper list. That paper list would already indicate whether or not you're going to be interrogated and at what level. My coworker flying with me was also red flagged, and he was explicitly told it was because of my country of birth and that he was flying with me. He had much less of a rough time than me, though, where I was being interrogated over where I got the 100 shekels they found in my wallet (apparently exchanging a nominal amount of Aussie dollars for shekels at Sydney airport "just in case" astounded El Al security, and it was much more likely that there was something much more sinister going on).
  - alexeldeib 9y ago
    Thanks for the detail, and for your own experience. The interrogation interests me. It sounds you don't feel it was useful? I had heard about this kind of interrogation over mundane stories, and understood it as a way of "testing" individuals' stories (especially under duress). But that would depend on it being repeated/prodded thoroughly, which it seems isn't the case.
    - azernik 9y ago
      "Repeated/prodded thoroughly" matches all of the descriptions of the long-form interrogations by Israeli airline and airport security. If they got to the 100 shekels in his wallet, then that means they probably asked him about a lot of other things first, and searched his wallet, and probably tried to put together a timeline of exactly when he went where to try to find cracks in the story.
      - stevenjohns 9y ago
        Not really. It was a standard run-of-the-mill search. The shekels are the only thing they were genuinely interested in. They couldn't comprehend why I had gotten it. It was bizarre.
emodendroket 9y ago
Being singled out for invasive searching and questioning whenever you fly for no reason other than your ethnicity goes a little beyond "not being offended."
- Retric 9y ago
  It's not simply (ed: only) based on ethnicity.
  - decebalus1 9y ago
    It's definitely not. My dad had one of those 'extensive questioning' sessions the first time (and only the first time) he flew to Israel because (we think) he is former non-US military. He's also whiter than snow, basically the definition of Caucasian.
    - everdev 9y ago
      You're right that there are many ways to profile, but race and religion have been historically pervasive profiling techniques. It does seem more fair to simply put everyone through the same process. If you're annoyed at why you (an innocent) have to be subjected to such stringent and time consuming security, that's how innocents who fit "the profile" might feel as well.
      - sooheon 9y ago
        If those doing the profiling are interested in being successful, and race and religion prove to be ineffective indicators of threat, then such profiling should stop (or bombs will keep getting through at an inordinate rate). Otherwise, race and religion are simply observations about passengers which have value in directing attention.
        emodendroket 9y ago
        > If those doing the profiling are interested in being successful, and race and religion prove to be ineffective indicators of threat, then such profiling should stop I mean maybe if the profiling is being done by robots, but in reality I have my doubts.
stevenjohns 9y ago
El Al security is not a good model at all. I'm still yet to figure out what they achieved by seizing my backpack (that had all of my personal documentation) and damaging my brand new MBP 2016 and Pixel tablet (by very clearly dropping them a dozen times) had to do with security. Especially when they lied about putting it on the plane and I arrived at Ben Gurion with literally nothing other than a passport in one pocket and a dead phone in the other. El Al's actions say the opposite about what you say about Israelis: El Al clearly believes that they are better at what they do than the IDF or Ben Gurion airport security, so they take it upon themselves (as private citizens) to pick up the slack. For what it's worth, the woman who interviewed me at Ben Gurion didn't have a lot of nice things to say about El Al either.
- KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
  Why has El Al security seized your backpack? I can see why they'd want to search a backpack, but can't for the life of me understand why they'd seize it. I know airlines can sometimes check-in your carry-on items when they run out of cabin space. Is this what happened to you?
  - virtualwhys 9y ago
    Seized my 23" LG travel monitor for 3 weeks, claiming it was a potential bomb. Fortunately I was in Israel for 4 months, so a minor inconvenience in the scheme of things, but still, seemed a bit over the top...until I stepped out of the airport and saw teenagers wielding machine guns (serving in military), the Israelis aren't messing around ;-) If you're Israeli I'd imagine the security measures aren't nearly as stringent.
  - PhasmaFelis 9y ago
    People with a little power and no supervision are likely to abuse it for their own ego. I doubt it's anything more than that.
  - stevenjohns 9y ago
    Because they just wanted to screw with me. They specifically didn't let me take on a paper file which had my invitation letter, citizenship copy and various other things that would have made my life easier at Ben Gurion. They promised they'd put it on the plane and they didn't. I got it two or three days later as El Al doesn't fly during Shabbat.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

brador 9y ago

Who decides the profiles?

alexeldeib 9y ago

I agree broadly that the Israeli model seems the one to follow. My understanding differs, however, in that it's not strictly profiling in the sense that carries heavy negative connotations in the US. I haven't traveled to Israel so can't comment, but I understand that in "profiling" the focus is on more objective metrics than an American might think when they hear the word -- e.g., physiological responses (sweating, increased heartrate, nervousness), consistency under questioning, etc. If that's not the case, would you mind providing some details about your own experience, since you mentioned being pulled aside repeatedly?

username223 9y ago
> physiological responses (sweating, increased heartrate, nervousness), consistency under questioning, etc. Is this what Canadian border guards are supposed to be doing? I hate dealing with them, and therefore minimize my border crossings. I just want to pour money into the Canadian economy as a tourist from time to time, and actual Canadian cops (RCMP) are much less aggressive than their US counterparts, but the border crossing is almost always unnecessarily miserable.
stevenjohns 9y ago
None of those are the metrics they use. Despite being an Australian citizen with a very clean record, as well as having a very Western name, I was red flagged before I even arrived because of my country of birth. With El Al, you're interrogated before you board the plane. When you go to check in, there is a "pre check-in" where you show staff your passport and they check your name off against a paper list. That paper list would already indicate whether or not you're going to be interrogated and at what level. My coworker flying with me was also red flagged, and he was explicitly told it was because of my country of birth and that he was flying with me. He had much less of a rough time than me, though, where I was being interrogated over where I got the 100 shekels they found in my wallet (apparently exchanging a nominal amount of Aussie dollars for shekels at Sydney airport "just in case" astounded El Al security, and it was much more likely that there was something much more sinister going on).
- alexeldeib 9y ago
  Thanks for the detail, and for your own experience. The interrogation interests me. It sounds you don't feel it was useful? I had heard about this kind of interrogation over mundane stories, and understood it as a way of "testing" individuals' stories (especially under duress). But that would depend on it being repeated/prodded thoroughly, which it seems isn't the case.
  - azernik 9y ago
    "Repeated/prodded thoroughly" matches all of the descriptions of the long-form interrogations by Israeli airline and airport security. If they got to the 100 shekels in his wallet, then that means they probably asked him about a lot of other things first, and searched his wallet, and probably tried to put together a timeline of exactly when he went where to try to find cracks in the story.
    - stevenjohns 9y ago
      Not really. It was a standard run-of-the-mill search. The shekels are the only thing they were genuinely interested in. They couldn't comprehend why I had gotten it. It was bizarre.

emodendroket 9y ago

Being singled out for invasive searching and questioning whenever you fly for no reason other than your ethnicity goes a little beyond "not being offended."

Retric 9y ago
It's not simply (ed: only) based on ethnicity.
- decebalus1 9y ago
  It's definitely not. My dad had one of those 'extensive questioning' sessions the first time (and only the first time) he flew to Israel because (we think) he is former non-US military. He's also whiter than snow, basically the definition of Caucasian.
  - everdev 9y ago
    You're right that there are many ways to profile, but race and religion have been historically pervasive profiling techniques. It does seem more fair to simply put everyone through the same process. If you're annoyed at why you (an innocent) have to be subjected to such stringent and time consuming security, that's how innocents who fit "the profile" might feel as well.
    - sooheon 9y ago
      If those doing the profiling are interested in being successful, and race and religion prove to be ineffective indicators of threat, then such profiling should stop (or bombs will keep getting through at an inordinate rate). Otherwise, race and religion are simply observations about passengers which have value in directing attention.
      - emodendroket 9y ago
        > If those doing the profiling are interested in being successful, and race and religion prove to be ineffective indicators of threat, then such profiling should stop I mean maybe if the profiling is being done by robots, but in reality I have my doubts.

stevenjohns 9y ago

El Al security is not a good model at all. I'm still yet to figure out what they achieved by seizing my backpack (that had all of my personal documentation) and damaging my brand new MBP 2016 and Pixel tablet (by very clearly dropping them a dozen times) had to do with security. Especially when they lied about putting it on the plane and I arrived at Ben Gurion with literally nothing other than a passport in one pocket and a dead phone in the other. El Al's actions say the opposite about what you say about Israelis: El Al clearly believes that they are better at what they do than the IDF or Ben Gurion airport security, so they take it upon themselves (as private citizens) to pick up the slack. For what it's worth, the woman who interviewed me at Ben Gurion didn't have a lot of nice things to say about El Al either.

KKKKkkkk1 9y ago
Why has El Al security seized your backpack? I can see why they'd want to search a backpack, but can't for the life of me understand why they'd seize it. I know airlines can sometimes check-in your carry-on items when they run out of cabin space. Is this what happened to you?
- virtualwhys 9y ago
  Seized my 23" LG travel monitor for 3 weeks, claiming it was a potential bomb. Fortunately I was in Israel for 4 months, so a minor inconvenience in the scheme of things, but still, seemed a bit over the top...until I stepped out of the airport and saw teenagers wielding machine guns (serving in military), the Israelis aren't messing around ;-) If you're Israeli I'd imagine the security measures aren't nearly as stringent.
- PhasmaFelis 9y ago
  People with a little power and no supervision are likely to abuse it for their own ego. I doubt it's anything more than that.
- stevenjohns 9y ago
  Because they just wanted to screw with me. They specifically didn't let me take on a paper file which had my invitation letter, citizenship copy and various other things that would have made my life easier at Ben Gurion. They promised they'd put it on the plane and they didn't. I got it two or three days later as El Al doesn't fly during Shabbat.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]