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You have to consider the wealth of respective countries and cities. E.g. my native Norway which is more similar to the US in GDP per capita has developer salari

You have to consider the wealth of respective countries and cities. E.g. my native Norway which is more similar to the US in GDP per capita has developer salaries closer to the US. Not only is Germany poorer than the US, but Berlin is among the poorer cities in Germany. Hence I don't think it says much about the results of unions. Norway has equally strong unions as Germany and close to 80% of Norwegian workers are unionized. I am pretty sure that if you compared to developer salaries in a richer country such as Switzerland you would also find much higher software developer salaries. And then there are national peculiarities. E.g. more developers in Germany than in many other European countries might be associated with manufacturing industry which doesn't necessarily value software developers as high as a more startup like scene.

cjalmeida 9y ago
From [1], cost of living in Oslo is way higher than Dallas. They're more in line with NYC or SFA. The avg salary is only about $65k [2]. Quite disappointing. I checked and dev salary in the rest of Germany. Not very different from Berlin. Switzerland does pay handsomely. But, unlike neighbors, unions have quite minor role. And labor laws are way more lax than France or DE. About prevalece of manufacturing in Germany, France has similar salaries despite being a more services oriented economy. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Norway&city1=Oslo&country2=United+States&city2=Dallas%2C+TX https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,4_IM1088_KO5,22.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-sa...
- jernfrost 9y ago
  I think it is a bit hard to compare the salaries, because Norwegian currency is presently at a historical low. When I compared at earlier years salary of me and my friends in the software industry was more similar to the US. Also I am in doubt about how many Norwegians report to these web pages. It would be more accurate to look at statistics gathered by NITO among its members. One aspect you have to consider with respect to the US and Europe in general is that Europeans work a lot fewer hours. A lot of difference between US and European software developer salaries could simply be down to difference in hours worked. I make about $97 000 at current exchange as a software developer in Norway. But I work only 37.5 hours per week. I got 5 weeks vacation per year. In addition to a lot more public holidays than in the US. I haven't worked overtime in over 10 years. While judging from accounts from Europeans working in the US, it is quite normal with very long work weeks and overtime. Oslo living expenses will look extra high because we are most likely at at the top of a property bubble. We never had a downturn in 2008 for the housing market. Also living expenses in Norway is usually hard to compare with other countries since food prices and recently housing costs are quite high. However health care, education, child care etc is quite cheap. Many consumer goods are also relatively cheap. E.g. food is much cheaper in Spain than in Norway but buying a TV is cheaper in Norway.
- jernfrost 9y ago
  Actually I forgot the perhaps most crucial point. Very few people are in unions who work as software developers. So it doesn't really make logical sense to make conclusions about software developer salaries based on unionization rate in the rest of the country. Engineers and software developers are if anything members of what could be more called trade groups. These groups don't negotiate or push for salaries on behalf of members, nor do they do things like organize strikes. To test you hypothesis I think you have to look at several countries in Europe at similar GDP number and compare salaries. Then you'd have to compare between those of different GDP numbers and see whether GDP or unionization rate correlates most with salaries. I got to point out however that such a task is momentously difficult, because differences in how things are recorded and rated. As an example I just remembered several other factors in addition to the previous mention that I forgot. 1) The salary quoted in Norway, is the money workers get after special income tax is deducted by the employer. This is about 14%. So a 65k salary is more like 75k if you consider this tax. 2) High living expenses in Norway is heavily influenced by a very high VAT tax of 25%. Sure that doesn't mean the money is suddenly in your pocket but it means it doesn't just disappear. It goes to cover extensive welfare services, which e.g. Americans would have to pay for out of pocket. In essence it is hard to compare very high tax regimes with extensive welfare benefits to one with low taxes and few benefits.

cjalmeida 9y ago

From [1], cost of living in Oslo is way higher than Dallas. They're more in line with NYC or SFA. The avg salary is only about $65k [2]. Quite disappointing. I checked and dev salary in the rest of Germany. Not very different from Berlin. Switzerland does pay handsomely. But, unlike neighbors, unions have quite minor role. And labor laws are way more lax than France or DE. About prevalece of manufacturing in Germany, France has similar salaries despite being a more services oriented economy. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Norway&city1=Oslo&country2=United+States&city2=Dallas%2C+TX https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,4_IM1088_KO5,22.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-sa...

jernfrost 9y ago
I think it is a bit hard to compare the salaries, because Norwegian currency is presently at a historical low. When I compared at earlier years salary of me and my friends in the software industry was more similar to the US. Also I am in doubt about how many Norwegians report to these web pages. It would be more accurate to look at statistics gathered by NITO among its members. One aspect you have to consider with respect to the US and Europe in general is that Europeans work a lot fewer hours. A lot of difference between US and European software developer salaries could simply be down to difference in hours worked. I make about $97 000 at current exchange as a software developer in Norway. But I work only 37.5 hours per week. I got 5 weeks vacation per year. In addition to a lot more public holidays than in the US. I haven't worked overtime in over 10 years. While judging from accounts from Europeans working in the US, it is quite normal with very long work weeks and overtime. Oslo living expenses will look extra high because we are most likely at at the top of a property bubble. We never had a downturn in 2008 for the housing market. Also living expenses in Norway is usually hard to compare with other countries since food prices and recently housing costs are quite high. However health care, education, child care etc is quite cheap. Many consumer goods are also relatively cheap. E.g. food is much cheaper in Spain than in Norway but buying a TV is cheaper in Norway.
jernfrost 9y ago
Actually I forgot the perhaps most crucial point. Very few people are in unions who work as software developers. So it doesn't really make logical sense to make conclusions about software developer salaries based on unionization rate in the rest of the country. Engineers and software developers are if anything members of what could be more called trade groups. These groups don't negotiate or push for salaries on behalf of members, nor do they do things like organize strikes. To test you hypothesis I think you have to look at several countries in Europe at similar GDP number and compare salaries. Then you'd have to compare between those of different GDP numbers and see whether GDP or unionization rate correlates most with salaries. I got to point out however that such a task is momentously difficult, because differences in how things are recorded and rated. As an example I just remembered several other factors in addition to the previous mention that I forgot. 1) The salary quoted in Norway, is the money workers get after special income tax is deducted by the employer. This is about 14%. So a 65k salary is more like 75k if you consider this tax. 2) High living expenses in Norway is heavily influenced by a very high VAT tax of 25%. Sure that doesn't mean the money is suddenly in your pocket but it means it doesn't just disappear. It goes to cover extensive welfare services, which e.g. Americans would have to pay for out of pocket. In essence it is hard to compare very high tax regimes with extensive welfare benefits to one with low taxes and few benefits.