9 ms·

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k. There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it. (I de

Avg dev salary in Dallas: $93k. Avg dev salary in Berlin: $55k. There's a saying you should be careful with what you wish for, you might as well get it. (I deliberately didn't pick SV/NYC. Dallas and Berlin are very similar cost of living wise.)

walshemj 9y ago
want to add the additional annual leave you get in Germany and average cost of the same health care in Dallas into that equation let alone the other benefits?
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  Sure, please. I'd love to see what are those extra benefits worth $40k yearly. (free healthcare doesn't count as the US amount usually includes insurance)
  - geezerjay 9y ago
    > I'd love to see what are those extra benefits worth $40k yearly. How about 35hour work weeks and the fact that overtime is paid? If you factor that into account and add to the healthcare and extra vacation days I'm pretty sure those fictional $40k/yearly fade out rather quickly. And by the way, average income means jack shit when the income distribution is so lopsided, particularly when discussing issuez linked to poverty and the lack of basic services.
    - wolco 9y ago
      free university, public transit, health care, old age payments, pensions. But the tax rates are higher so 55k is really 32k. You are better off working part time in the US.
      - walshemj 9y ago
        your also forgetting the 13th month and the generous tax dodges you can use in Germany or in the UK the use of ISA's and generous tax breaks on pensions your 401k doesn't get relif at your highest rate does it?
- marvin 9y ago
  The $55k are pre-tax, and the "free" healthcare in contries with public health care are mostly paid out of those taxes. There is probably a point in there about shorter work days and legally mandated overtime pay, but it doesn't add up to 40k per year. Honestly, the more I look at this, the more it seems like there are hidden mechanisms that keep pay below market value in many European countries. E.g. wage collusion and the like. I am almost certain that this is part of the picture, although there are also other factors at play. (Smaller, less homogenous markets than the US, more restrictive laws around business ownership, fewer gargantous and profitable companies that compete for talent, etc). The High-Tech Employee Anti-Trust Litigation looks very curious to my Norwegian eyes. Cold-calling employees at competitors for recruiting is widely considered inappropriate behavior. I would not be surprised to find out that there are eerily similar unwritten agreements between large employers here.
  - cjalmeida 9y ago
    Now you mentioned taxes, let's get more numbers! Yay! Income taxes in Texas for 95k amounts to about 27%. Income tax in Berlin for $60k (30y, no children, left other options on defaults) amounts to 33%. The after tax difference is about $30k then. Tuition in UT Dallas, 4y engineering bachelor degree, is $45k. Free in DE, but you pay that in less than two years with the difference in salary. Public transport? In US the TCO is estimated at $8500 yearly. In Berlin you can get an annual tickets for $1100. It's not directly comparable but you get the picture. For better perspective, NYC 30d passes sets you back at $1450 per year.
    - ctchocula 9y ago
      Just a nitpick, but I think you are using the marginal tax numbers instead of the actual tax rate, and not applying all the complicated deductions available to US people. Texas: $95k pre-tax falls into the marginal 28% bracket, but after subtracting 401k + IRA deferral ($18k + $5.5k), $95k falls to AGI of $71.5k. Then after subtracting standard deduction ($6.35k for single 30y, no children), personal exemption ($4.05k), taxable income falls to $61.1k. For this, the tax calculation is: 0-9325: 10%x9325 = 932.5 9325-37950: 15%x28624 = 4293.6 37950-61100: 25%x23150 = 5787.5 Total tax: 11013.6 Post-tax income: 84k Income Tax rate: 11.6% since no income tax in Texas. Social security+Medicare: 7.65% Post-tax and post-SS: $76.7k Berlin: Pre-tax: $60k USD x 1 Euro/$1.19 USD = 50240 Euro I entered this number into a German tax estimator [1], which gave me the following output for the tax bracket calculations: Total tax: 9.908,56 Euro Post-tax income: 40331 Euro Income Tax rate: 19.7% Obligatory Pension: 9.35% UI+Health Insurance+Disability: 8.4%+1.5%+1.425% = 11.325% Post-tax and everything: $35.8k USD The difference becomes $40.9k. If you amortize the 4y engineering bachelor degree over 4 years, I think the difference in income is quite significant. [1] http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm
anigbrowl 9y ago
Odd, because people I talk to from Berlin are horrified at the cost of living here. I'm not sure you're comparing apples with apples.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  These can both be true: 1. The cost of living in Dallas is roughly equal to the cost of living in Berlin. 2. The cost of living like you're in Berlin in Dallas is much higher than the cost of living in Berlin.
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  Cost of living is comparable in USD terms. They're perceived to be higher because people earn less. Your $1000 rent feels more expensive for a Berliner earning $3000/mo after tax than for the $5800/mo Texan.
jernfrost 9y ago
You have to consider the wealth of respective countries and cities. E.g. my native Norway which is more similar to the US in GDP per capita has developer salaries closer to the US. Not only is Germany poorer than the US, but Berlin is among the poorer cities in Germany. Hence I don't think it says much about the results of unions. Norway has equally strong unions as Germany and close to 80% of Norwegian workers are unionized. I am pretty sure that if you compared to developer salaries in a richer country such as Switzerland you would also find much higher software developer salaries. And then there are national peculiarities. E.g. more developers in Germany than in many other European countries might be associated with manufacturing industry which doesn't necessarily value software developers as high as a more startup like scene.
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  From [1], cost of living in Oslo is way higher than Dallas. They're more in line with NYC or SFA. The avg salary is only about $65k [2]. Quite disappointing. I checked and dev salary in the rest of Germany. Not very different from Berlin. Switzerland does pay handsomely. But, unlike neighbors, unions have quite minor role. And labor laws are way more lax than France or DE. About prevalece of manufacturing in Germany, France has similar salaries despite being a more services oriented economy. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Norway&city1=Oslo&country2=United+States&city2=Dallas%2C+TX https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,4_IM1088_KO5,22.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-sa...
  - jernfrost 9y ago
    I think it is a bit hard to compare the salaries, because Norwegian currency is presently at a historical low. When I compared at earlier years salary of me and my friends in the software industry was more similar to the US. Also I am in doubt about how many Norwegians report to these web pages. It would be more accurate to look at statistics gathered by NITO among its members. One aspect you have to consider with respect to the US and Europe in general is that Europeans work a lot fewer hours. A lot of difference between US and European software developer salaries could simply be down to difference in hours worked. I make about $97 000 at current exchange as a software developer in Norway. But I work only 37.5 hours per week. I got 5 weeks vacation per year. In addition to a lot more public holidays than in the US. I haven't worked overtime in over 10 years. While judging from accounts from Europeans working in the US, it is quite normal with very long work weeks and overtime. Oslo living expenses will look extra high because we are most likely at at the top of a property bubble. We never had a downturn in 2008 for the housing market. Also living expenses in Norway is usually hard to compare with other countries since food prices and recently housing costs are quite high. However health care, education, child care etc is quite cheap. Many consumer goods are also relatively cheap. E.g. food is much cheaper in Spain than in Norway but buying a TV is cheaper in Norway.
pjmlp 9y ago
30 days vacations, healthcare and overtime only when I say so. It ia worth every penny I get less than Dallas, life is not always about money.

walshemj 9y ago

want to add the additional annual leave you get in Germany and average cost of the same health care in Dallas into that equation let alone the other benefits?

cjalmeida 9y ago
Sure, please. I'd love to see what are those extra benefits worth $40k yearly. (free healthcare doesn't count as the US amount usually includes insurance)
- geezerjay 9y ago
  > I'd love to see what are those extra benefits worth $40k yearly. How about 35hour work weeks and the fact that overtime is paid? If you factor that into account and add to the healthcare and extra vacation days I'm pretty sure those fictional $40k/yearly fade out rather quickly. And by the way, average income means jack shit when the income distribution is so lopsided, particularly when discussing issuez linked to poverty and the lack of basic services.
  - wolco 9y ago
    free university, public transit, health care, old age payments, pensions. But the tax rates are higher so 55k is really 32k. You are better off working part time in the US.
    - walshemj 9y ago
      your also forgetting the 13th month and the generous tax dodges you can use in Germany or in the UK the use of ISA's and generous tax breaks on pensions your 401k doesn't get relif at your highest rate does it?
marvin 9y ago
The $55k are pre-tax, and the "free" healthcare in contries with public health care are mostly paid out of those taxes. There is probably a point in there about shorter work days and legally mandated overtime pay, but it doesn't add up to 40k per year. Honestly, the more I look at this, the more it seems like there are hidden mechanisms that keep pay below market value in many European countries. E.g. wage collusion and the like. I am almost certain that this is part of the picture, although there are also other factors at play. (Smaller, less homogenous markets than the US, more restrictive laws around business ownership, fewer gargantous and profitable companies that compete for talent, etc). The High-Tech Employee Anti-Trust Litigation looks very curious to my Norwegian eyes. Cold-calling employees at competitors for recruiting is widely considered inappropriate behavior. I would not be surprised to find out that there are eerily similar unwritten agreements between large employers here.
- cjalmeida 9y ago
  Now you mentioned taxes, let's get more numbers! Yay! Income taxes in Texas for 95k amounts to about 27%. Income tax in Berlin for $60k (30y, no children, left other options on defaults) amounts to 33%. The after tax difference is about $30k then. Tuition in UT Dallas, 4y engineering bachelor degree, is $45k. Free in DE, but you pay that in less than two years with the difference in salary. Public transport? In US the TCO is estimated at $8500 yearly. In Berlin you can get an annual tickets for $1100. It's not directly comparable but you get the picture. For better perspective, NYC 30d passes sets you back at $1450 per year.
  - ctchocula 9y ago
    Just a nitpick, but I think you are using the marginal tax numbers instead of the actual tax rate, and not applying all the complicated deductions available to US people. Texas: $95k pre-tax falls into the marginal 28% bracket, but after subtracting 401k + IRA deferral ($18k + $5.5k), $95k falls to AGI of $71.5k. Then after subtracting standard deduction ($6.35k for single 30y, no children), personal exemption ($4.05k), taxable income falls to $61.1k. For this, the tax calculation is: 0-9325: 10%x9325 = 932.5 9325-37950: 15%x28624 = 4293.6 37950-61100: 25%x23150 = 5787.5 Total tax: 11013.6 Post-tax income: 84k Income Tax rate: 11.6% since no income tax in Texas. Social security+Medicare: 7.65% Post-tax and post-SS: $76.7k Berlin: Pre-tax: $60k USD x 1 Euro/$1.19 USD = 50240 Euro I entered this number into a German tax estimator [1], which gave me the following output for the tax bracket calculations: Total tax: 9.908,56 Euro Post-tax income: 40331 Euro Income Tax rate: 19.7% Obligatory Pension: 9.35% UI+Health Insurance+Disability: 8.4%+1.5%+1.425% = 11.325% Post-tax and everything: $35.8k USD The difference becomes $40.9k. If you amortize the 4y engineering bachelor degree over 4 years, I think the difference in income is quite significant. [1] http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm http://www.parmentier.de/steuer/steuer.htm?wagetax.htm

anigbrowl 9y ago

Odd, because people I talk to from Berlin are horrified at the cost of living here. I'm not sure you're comparing apples with apples.

thaumasiotes 9y ago
These can both be true: 1. The cost of living in Dallas is roughly equal to the cost of living in Berlin. 2. The cost of living like you're in Berlin in Dallas is much higher than the cost of living in Berlin.
cjalmeida 9y ago
Cost of living is comparable in USD terms. They're perceived to be higher because people earn less. Your $1000 rent feels more expensive for a Berliner earning $3000/mo after tax than for the $5800/mo Texan.

jernfrost 9y ago

You have to consider the wealth of respective countries and cities. E.g. my native Norway which is more similar to the US in GDP per capita has developer salaries closer to the US. Not only is Germany poorer than the US, but Berlin is among the poorer cities in Germany. Hence I don't think it says much about the results of unions. Norway has equally strong unions as Germany and close to 80% of Norwegian workers are unionized. I am pretty sure that if you compared to developer salaries in a richer country such as Switzerland you would also find much higher software developer salaries. And then there are national peculiarities. E.g. more developers in Germany than in many other European countries might be associated with manufacturing industry which doesn't necessarily value software developers as high as a more startup like scene.

cjalmeida 9y ago
From [1], cost of living in Oslo is way higher than Dallas. They're more in line with NYC or SFA. The avg salary is only about $65k [2]. Quite disappointing. I checked and dev salary in the rest of Germany. Not very different from Berlin. Switzerland does pay handsomely. But, unlike neighbors, unions have quite minor role. And labor laws are way more lax than France or DE. About prevalece of manufacturing in Germany, France has similar salaries despite being a more services oriented economy. [1]https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?country1=Norway&city1=Oslo&country2=United+States&city2=Dallas%2C+TX https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/compare_cities.jsp?cou... [2] https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-salary-SRCH_IL.0,4_IM1088_KO5,22.htm https://www.glassdoor.com/Salaries/oslo-software-engineer-sa...
- jernfrost 9y ago
  I think it is a bit hard to compare the salaries, because Norwegian currency is presently at a historical low. When I compared at earlier years salary of me and my friends in the software industry was more similar to the US. Also I am in doubt about how many Norwegians report to these web pages. It would be more accurate to look at statistics gathered by NITO among its members. One aspect you have to consider with respect to the US and Europe in general is that Europeans work a lot fewer hours. A lot of difference between US and European software developer salaries could simply be down to difference in hours worked. I make about $97 000 at current exchange as a software developer in Norway. But I work only 37.5 hours per week. I got 5 weeks vacation per year. In addition to a lot more public holidays than in the US. I haven't worked overtime in over 10 years. While judging from accounts from Europeans working in the US, it is quite normal with very long work weeks and overtime. Oslo living expenses will look extra high because we are most likely at at the top of a property bubble. We never had a downturn in 2008 for the housing market. Also living expenses in Norway is usually hard to compare with other countries since food prices and recently housing costs are quite high. However health care, education, child care etc is quite cheap. Many consumer goods are also relatively cheap. E.g. food is much cheaper in Spain than in Norway but buying a TV is cheaper in Norway.

pjmlp 9y ago

30 days vacations, healthcare and overtime only when I say so. It ia worth every penny I get less than Dallas, life is not always about money.