7 ms·

The article mentions getting someone to like you unnaturally fast to divulge information. This happened to me once. I was a character reference for a friend wh

by qubyte 9y ago

The article mentions getting someone to like you unnaturally fast to divulge information. This happened to me once. I was a character reference for a friend who needed security clearance for a position in the UK, and they sent a a guy to come and interview me. About 45 minutes later I came out of the room and quickly realised I'd been mined for information (all good, luckily for my friend). While it was happening it felt like we were having just a nice chat. Afterwards I was totally exhausted. A very strange experience.

AlexCoventry 9y ago
You can see that principle at work in the interrogation of Reality Winner. https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015e-c5e7-ddab-a57f-cfe7d5b50002 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015e-c5e7-ddab-a57f-cfe7d...
- dilap 9y ago
  I've read parts of that and it's fascinating. The FBI agents are good at their job.
  - cloakandswagger 9y ago
    They're good, but the transcripts really demonstrate just how hopelessly naive RW is. She printed classified docs on her work printer, emailed them from her work email and then confessed to FBI agents without consulting a lawyer. It doesn't excuse what she did, of course, but it's clear she didn't grasp the gravity of her actions.
    - heartbreak 9y ago
      Maybe it’s because I’ve never been in that position, but I simply do not understand why you wouldn’t ask to have an attorney present for the questioning.
      - nkozyra 9y ago
        Those doing the questioning try hard to blend the line between "we're just talking" and you needing a lawyer. The truth is, you need a lawyer precisely because you're "just talking." We've also been conditioned to believe that retaining and using a lawyer should be conflated with guilt.
      - schoen 9y ago
        I feel like this is something people have to consciously practice and remind themselves of. I work for a civil liberties organization. Yet a few years ago two patrol officers in a train station in New York managed to interrogate me using a classic "good cop, bad cop" method -- about photographs that I was taking. I felt especially weird about this afterward because I had been reading news articles about people's legal right to take photographs in public places. Apparently, my theoretical desire to assert my rights in an interaction with law enforcement somehow wasn't borne out in practice, and their interrogation methods are incredibly effective. One thing I found striking when looking briefly at the linked transcript of the interview with Reality Winner is her concern for her pets. Making sure that her pets are properly taken care of is something that she needs from the agents and that's outside of her control in this situation. They don't explicitly bargain about this, but it seems like it's one big reason that she wants them to see her as cooperative.
        jnbiche 9y ago
        > Making sure that her pets are properly taken care of is something that she needs from the agents and that's outside of her control in this situation. Exactly, and she knows that pets frequently get shot in situations like the one she was in (although to be fair, that's usually with city and state police depts, not the FBI).
        rdtsc 9y ago
        Yeah I noticed the pets too, no doubt the FBI agents picked up her concern for it and used the situation to their advantage. Imagine if it was kids, friends or relatives. "Sure don't have to talk to us, but keep in mind we can arrest you, and we don't want to do it, who knows what weirdos your kids might end up with..." "-Yeah sure let's talk..."
    - AlexCoventry 9y ago
      I think it's worth considering that her work environment may have conditioned her to compliance with authority.
- nasredin 9y ago
  If the FBI shows up at your door, and act very nicely, very friendly... but they have a search warrant... It's not a speeding ticket, you are not gonna out talk them out of searching your house... so you should... not talk?!
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    > so you should... not talk?! That's about the gist of legal advice in general, yes.
  - zrail 9y ago
    Correct. Do not talk to law enforcement without legal representation present. If the FBI shows up at your door with a search warrant your first action is to take the warrant and call an attorney.
    - mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
      Is it ever a good idea to speak WITH an attorney present? I’m serious. I see movies where people talk to law with attorney and wonder if they are actually required to? Could they not just say nothing even with a lawyer?
  - smnrchrds 9y ago
    They are professionals with a single goal in mind and years of combined training and practice to learn how to acheive it. If you think you can somehow talk them out of doing what they came to do and not put yourself in a worse position than what you began with [1], you are either a very good criminal lawyer or are being naïve. [1] e.g. by making a false statement in violation of 18 USC 1001, and trust me, they will be counting on it and have planned for it) https://www.popehat.com/2007/10/26/shutupshutupshutupshutup/ https://www.popehat.com/2007/10/26/shutupshutupshutupshutup/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/03/18/just-a-friendly-reminder-please-shut-the-hell-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/03/18/just-a-friendly-reminder-... https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-please-shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-plea...
- blattimwind 9y ago
  Am I the only one who can never read her name without immediately thinking it's the code name of a SGI graphics pipeline?
- eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
  Can somebody explain why RW was not read her Miranda rights? Was it because she was never placed in custody?
  - AlexCoventry 9y ago
    Yes. A good primer: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-miranda-warnings-29930.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m...
  - raarts 9y ago
    There are two very basic prerequisites before the police must issue a Miranda warning to a suspect: - The suspect is in police custody - The suspect is under interrogation It's crucial to understand these prerequisites because if you aren't formally in police custody, and you aren't being interrogated, the police don't have to give you a Miranda warning. This, in turn, means that the police can use anything you say until those two requirements are fulfilled as evidence against you.
orf 9y ago
Can you elaborate on this? It sounds really interesting. In retrospect what did they do to disarm you?
- qubyte 9y ago
  It was a long time ago, so I don't remember an awful lot. He caught me off balance from the start. I remember bringing ID and asking him if he needed to see it. With a hint of an amused smile he replied "I know who you are, young man." Other than that, he just kept me chatting. It seemed perfectly natural at the time.
hluska 9y ago
This reminds me of being a slightly rebellious teenager. My Dad was a police officer known for being a particularly effective investigator. Whenever I'd do something stupid, my Dad would sit me down for a chat. No matter how much I steeled myself, the truth eventually came out. Like you, I was always absolutely exhausted afterwards.
- qubyte 9y ago
  This guy was a retired police officer, as it happens.

by qubyte 9y ago

AlexCoventry 9y ago

You can see that principle at work in the interrogation of Reality Winner. https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015e-c5e7-ddab-a57f-cfe7d5b50002 https://www.politico.com/f/?id=0000015e-c5e7-ddab-a57f-cfe7d...

dilap 9y ago
I've read parts of that and it's fascinating. The FBI agents are good at their job.
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  They're good, but the transcripts really demonstrate just how hopelessly naive RW is. She printed classified docs on her work printer, emailed them from her work email and then confessed to FBI agents without consulting a lawyer. It doesn't excuse what she did, of course, but it's clear she didn't grasp the gravity of her actions.
  - heartbreak 9y ago
    Maybe it’s because I’ve never been in that position, but I simply do not understand why you wouldn’t ask to have an attorney present for the questioning.
    - nkozyra 9y ago
      Those doing the questioning try hard to blend the line between "we're just talking" and you needing a lawyer. The truth is, you need a lawyer precisely because you're "just talking." We've also been conditioned to believe that retaining and using a lawyer should be conflated with guilt.
    - schoen 9y ago
      I feel like this is something people have to consciously practice and remind themselves of. I work for a civil liberties organization. Yet a few years ago two patrol officers in a train station in New York managed to interrogate me using a classic "good cop, bad cop" method -- about photographs that I was taking. I felt especially weird about this afterward because I had been reading news articles about people's legal right to take photographs in public places. Apparently, my theoretical desire to assert my rights in an interaction with law enforcement somehow wasn't borne out in practice, and their interrogation methods are incredibly effective. One thing I found striking when looking briefly at the linked transcript of the interview with Reality Winner is her concern for her pets. Making sure that her pets are properly taken care of is something that she needs from the agents and that's outside of her control in this situation. They don't explicitly bargain about this, but it seems like it's one big reason that she wants them to see her as cooperative.
      - jnbiche 9y ago
        > Making sure that her pets are properly taken care of is something that she needs from the agents and that's outside of her control in this situation. Exactly, and she knows that pets frequently get shot in situations like the one she was in (although to be fair, that's usually with city and state police depts, not the FBI).
      - rdtsc 9y ago
        Yeah I noticed the pets too, no doubt the FBI agents picked up her concern for it and used the situation to their advantage. Imagine if it was kids, friends or relatives. "Sure don't have to talk to us, but keep in mind we can arrest you, and we don't want to do it, who knows what weirdos your kids might end up with..." "-Yeah sure let's talk..."
  - AlexCoventry 9y ago
    I think it's worth considering that her work environment may have conditioned her to compliance with authority.
nasredin 9y ago
If the FBI shows up at your door, and act very nicely, very friendly... but they have a search warrant... It's not a speeding ticket, you are not gonna out talk them out of searching your house... so you should... not talk?!
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  > so you should... not talk?! That's about the gist of legal advice in general, yes.
- zrail 9y ago
  Correct. Do not talk to law enforcement without legal representation present. If the FBI shows up at your door with a search warrant your first action is to take the warrant and call an attorney.
  - mrhappyunhappy 9y ago
    Is it ever a good idea to speak WITH an attorney present? I’m serious. I see movies where people talk to law with attorney and wonder if they are actually required to? Could they not just say nothing even with a lawyer?
- smnrchrds 9y ago
  They are professionals with a single goal in mind and years of combined training and practice to learn how to acheive it. If you think you can somehow talk them out of doing what they came to do and not put yourself in a worse position than what you began with [1], you are either a very good criminal lawyer or are being naïve. [1] e.g. by making a false statement in violation of 18 USC 1001, and trust me, they will be counting on it and have planned for it) https://www.popehat.com/2007/10/26/shutupshutupshutupshutup/ https://www.popehat.com/2007/10/26/shutupshutupshutupshutup/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/03/18/just-a-friendly-reminder-please-shut-the-hell-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/03/18/just-a-friendly-reminder-... https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-please-shut-up/ https://www.popehat.com/2011/12/01/reminder-oh-wont-you-plea...
blattimwind 9y ago
Am I the only one who can never read her name without immediately thinking it's the code name of a SGI graphics pipeline?
eh78ssxv2f 9y ago
Can somebody explain why RW was not read her Miranda rights? Was it because she was never placed in custody?
- AlexCoventry 9y ago
  Yes. A good primer: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-miranda-warnings-29930.html https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/police-questioning-m...
- raarts 9y ago
  There are two very basic prerequisites before the police must issue a Miranda warning to a suspect: - The suspect is in police custody - The suspect is under interrogation It's crucial to understand these prerequisites because if you aren't formally in police custody, and you aren't being interrogated, the police don't have to give you a Miranda warning. This, in turn, means that the police can use anything you say until those two requirements are fulfilled as evidence against you.

orf 9y ago

Can you elaborate on this? It sounds really interesting. In retrospect what did they do to disarm you?

qubyte 9y ago
It was a long time ago, so I don't remember an awful lot. He caught me off balance from the start. I remember bringing ID and asking him if he needed to see it. With a hint of an amused smile he replied "I know who you are, young man." Other than that, he just kept me chatting. It seemed perfectly natural at the time.

hluska 9y ago

This reminds me of being a slightly rebellious teenager. My Dad was a police officer known for being a particularly effective investigator. Whenever I'd do something stupid, my Dad would sit me down for a chat. No matter how much I steeled myself, the truth eventually came out. Like you, I was always absolutely exhausted afterwards.

qubyte 9y ago
This guy was a retired police officer, as it happens.