4 ms·

This has generally been the standard argument since Keynes (and others) first turned out to be spectacularly wrong. We just consume more. But, I see this argume

This has generally been the standard argument since Keynes (and others) first turned out to be spectacularly wrong. We just consume more. But, I see this argument differently these days. In tech stuff, we definitely have more stuff. A phone+plan for every person over 13. Laptops for most people. But, you can't function without these. It's not really a discretionary spending. A student (for example) is at a disadvantage without those things. In fact, the student is also consuming more education then in Keynes' day. That's also a competitive consumption, that you must buy in order to participate in the job market to a greater extent then before. Housing in a lot of urban or semi-urban areas is also competitive. Median house prices in these cities is a multiple of median salary, and prices don't scale well below the median. So... I think the statement is true in an almost tautological sense. But, very little is discretionary spending. Most of it is competitive and in a competition the median person is still the median person.

dustingetz 9y ago
The key realization for me was that the phone-plan-at-13 isn't really optional, the kid needs it to stay competitive with the median kid
avar 9y ago
> you can't function without [a phone > + plan once you're 13yo, and laptop]. > It's not really a discretionary > spending. Even if I give you that a network connected phone is something a teenager absolutely must have, that still leaves the fact that most people vastly overspend on these items. Yes you might need a smartphone and a laptop for school, but those are going to cost at most $200 used, but people conflate the need for these devices with the fashion statement of owning the latest iPhone or MacBook.
- CamTin 9y ago
  The only reason you and I can buy $200 used Thinkpads is because everyone else is clamoring to overspend for shiny new ones. If more people were OK with keeping their computers longer or buying used, then the price of used computers would go up. This would obviously be good because we would be valuing things closer to the actual benefit that they bring, but its not the case that we can ALL just have dirt-cheap few-year-old laptops.
  - avar 9y ago
    If everyone was satisfied with keeping their computers for longer or buying used then it stands to reason that the price of new computers would go down, e.g. what are now $300-500 Chromebooks would be top of the line. In any case, I think, with respect, that you're postulating an absurd hypothetical scenario that's never going to happen. There's always going to be some people who buy new and others who buy used, think used cars, clothes etc. Phones & laptops are now a mature technology, the days when you need a new computer to run spreadsheets or browse the Internet are over. Nowadays a 5 year old computer is just as good for pretty much any application except AAA games. The GP was mentioning students as needing phones & laptops. I'm pointing out that students in particular think nothing of buying say used clothes because they don't have a lot of money, but for some reason a lot more people have expensive new gadgets they don't need.

dustingetz 9y ago

The key realization for me was that the phone-plan-at-13 isn't really optional, the kid needs it to stay competitive with the median kid

avar 9y ago

> you can't function without [a phone > + plan once you're 13yo, and laptop]. > It's not really a discretionary > spending. Even if I give you that a network connected phone is something a teenager absolutely must have, that still leaves the fact that most people vastly overspend on these items. Yes you might need a smartphone and a laptop for school, but those are going to cost at most $200 used, but people conflate the need for these devices with the fashion statement of owning the latest iPhone or MacBook.

CamTin 9y ago
The only reason you and I can buy $200 used Thinkpads is because everyone else is clamoring to overspend for shiny new ones. If more people were OK with keeping their computers longer or buying used, then the price of used computers would go up. This would obviously be good because we would be valuing things closer to the actual benefit that they bring, but its not the case that we can ALL just have dirt-cheap few-year-old laptops.
- avar 9y ago
  If everyone was satisfied with keeping their computers for longer or buying used then it stands to reason that the price of new computers would go down, e.g. what are now $300-500 Chromebooks would be top of the line. In any case, I think, with respect, that you're postulating an absurd hypothetical scenario that's never going to happen. There's always going to be some people who buy new and others who buy used, think used cars, clothes etc. Phones & laptops are now a mature technology, the days when you need a new computer to run spreadsheets or browse the Internet are over. Nowadays a 5 year old computer is just as good for pretty much any application except AAA games. The GP was mentioning students as needing phones & laptops. I'm pointing out that students in particular think nothing of buying say used clothes because they don't have a lot of money, but for some reason a lot more people have expensive new gadgets they don't need.