7 ms·

I know people who escaped severe depression and suicidal thoughts only through medication, after trying all the talky-thinky stuff they could. I also know peopl

by mtpn 9y ago

I know people who escaped severe depression and suicidal thoughts only through medication, after trying all the talky-thinky stuff they could. I also know people who manage their depression with just cognitive behavioral therapy techniques, exercise, etc and are broadly successful at keeping things together. I'm all for ignoring advice that doesn't speak to you. I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
>I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness. I have found that there are people in the world that want other people to die. It's a terrible truth. But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing. Some people need more than just a few words of direction, they need active people in their lives helping them. But it doesn't mean that many people won't benefit from hearing this.
- mtpn 9y ago
  > But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing. That depends on who is listening, which is why, initially, I urged care to be taken in how we frame these things. On the internet we don't know who is reading or what they need to get better. At the right moment, for the right person, your advice could be just what they need, but at the wrong moment, it could add to their despair. Because we can't choose who is reading.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    What I learned in my experience with depression is that I was down no matter what. And there was very few things that could make it worse. And I guarantee you what I wrote wouldn't mean a damn thing to me. I would ignore it and move it. But then one day, it did mean something. And it was valuable. And the last thing I was doing when I was in despair was reading comments online. I was in bed curled up, or worse. Maybe you haven't had experience with severe depression? Please provide an example of how you think you could protect people in the depths of depression by framing it differently, maybe I am wrong, and more people could be reached by a simple change or additional phrasing.
    - mtpn 9y ago
      This comment itself seems much more accurate than your original post. It allows for the fact that - sometimes - you don't have the power to change things right then. Sometimes the best you can do is survive, endure, and accept. You can only fix things when you can fix things. It seems like you don't know how your first post got me thinking "try harder" so I want to highlight the things you said that gave me this impression. >I was determined to end this trend, no matter what. After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to me, even when I talked quietly. - Your determination seems to be the key factor in how you tell this. You made a choice and tried really hard to to follow through. > I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits. I think anyone can change anything. - this is a list of great accomplishments but avoids expressing that any of this was difficult. Just that anybody can change anything. I disagree, but so far we are just talking about behavior changes, you haven't mentioned depression yet, so fair enough. > We just need enough of a reason to do something, and then we can do it. - This is where I think you are just plain wrong. It oversimplifies the situation. Dismisses the many factors that effect motivation and mental health. > The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can. - this is your own personal framework that worked for you. To my mind, reasons require logic to be available to the person. > (also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything - This is where you bring up depression, which was my main problem. You put quotes around "diseases" and call bologna on the whole list, again offering that that "anyone" can change anything, presumably using that single method you have described. "Have a reason, make a choice, be determined." It's so dismissive, and I believe it's inherently false, plus it also sounds like it's not even what you really think? You didn't, in the first post, mention anything at all about asking for help, or going through periods where you could not help yourself or change at the time. You only suggested that if the person thinks right, they can change literally anything. People feel such guilt when they are engaged in behavior that hurts the people they love, and watch themselves make the bad choices in spite of knowing better. Family members wonder how their parent could ever sure by suicide, unless they hated their family. Etc etc. Reasons, alone, are not sufficient.

by mtpn 9y ago

RobertRoberts 9y ago

>I'm against a suicidal person reading something that increases their level of guilt and worthlessness. I have found that there are people in the world that want other people to die. It's a terrible truth. But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing. Some people need more than just a few words of direction, they need active people in their lives helping them. But it doesn't mean that many people won't benefit from hearing this.

mtpn 9y ago
> But telling someone they can face their problems, and having that person feeling guilt or worthless because of that is not the same thing. That depends on who is listening, which is why, initially, I urged care to be taken in how we frame these things. On the internet we don't know who is reading or what they need to get better. At the right moment, for the right person, your advice could be just what they need, but at the wrong moment, it could add to their despair. Because we can't choose who is reading.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  What I learned in my experience with depression is that I was down no matter what. And there was very few things that could make it worse. And I guarantee you what I wrote wouldn't mean a damn thing to me. I would ignore it and move it. But then one day, it did mean something. And it was valuable. And the last thing I was doing when I was in despair was reading comments online. I was in bed curled up, or worse. Maybe you haven't had experience with severe depression? Please provide an example of how you think you could protect people in the depths of depression by framing it differently, maybe I am wrong, and more people could be reached by a simple change or additional phrasing.
  - mtpn 9y ago
    This comment itself seems much more accurate than your original post. It allows for the fact that - sometimes - you don't have the power to change things right then. Sometimes the best you can do is survive, endure, and accept. You can only fix things when you can fix things. It seems like you don't know how your first post got me thinking "try harder" so I want to highlight the things you said that gave me this impression. >I was determined to end this trend, no matter what. After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to me, even when I talked quietly. - Your determination seems to be the key factor in how you tell this. You made a choice and tried really hard to to follow through. > I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits. I think anyone can change anything. - this is a list of great accomplishments but avoids expressing that any of this was difficult. Just that anybody can change anything. I disagree, but so far we are just talking about behavior changes, you haven't mentioned depression yet, so fair enough. > We just need enough of a reason to do something, and then we can do it. - This is where I think you are just plain wrong. It oversimplifies the situation. Dismisses the many factors that effect motivation and mental health. > The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can. - this is your own personal framework that worked for you. To my mind, reasons require logic to be available to the person. > (also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything - This is where you bring up depression, which was my main problem. You put quotes around "diseases" and call bologna on the whole list, again offering that that "anyone" can change anything, presumably using that single method you have described. "Have a reason, make a choice, be determined." It's so dismissive, and I believe it's inherently false, plus it also sounds like it's not even what you really think? You didn't, in the first post, mention anything at all about asking for help, or going through periods where you could not help yourself or change at the time. You only suggested that if the person thinks right, they can change literally anything. People feel such guilt when they are engaged in behavior that hurts the people they love, and watch themselves make the bad choices in spite of knowing better. Family members wonder how their parent could ever sure by suicide, unless they hated their family. Etc etc. Reasons, alone, are not sufficient.