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Redeveloping a low density property for higher density is fine, except part of what makes that new property attractive is the neighborhood it was built in. Whic

Redeveloping a low density property for higher density is fine, except part of what makes that new property attractive is the neighborhood it was built in. Which in our hypothetical, is low density and maybe nice. Then in the process of redeveloping, as more and more properties are redeveloped, the old character is lost to everybody- the people who lived there as well as the new people who moved there for that character! It's not a new conundrum- what do you do about people moving to a community for it's desirable character, but killing that character in the process? It hurts everyone involved. HN frequently likes to take the position that the parcel you bought is yours, but if your neighbor wants to bootstrap a red light district you just have to deal. But, all over the country we have HOA's and zoning and so forth. Turns out, people want to come together and live in a community. Nobody particularly likes living in a free-for-all, so mutual agreements were set up to ensure the neighborhood you bought into doesn't turn into something totally different overnight.

zackelan 9y ago
> what do you do about people moving to a community for its desirable character but killing that character in the process? Here's what I think is the central (and flawed) assumption in this line of reasoning - people move to an area because of its "character". And that "character" is an intangible, immeasurable quality, but it is somehow diminished if more people move to the area. I grew up in Seattle. Both of my grandparents, when I was a kid, lived in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood. I live in Fremont today. From one perspective, the Fremont of my childhood is completely changed. On the other hand, it's still Fremont, with the Center of the Universe sign and the statue of Lenin and many other things I remember from childhood. Does it have the same "character"? Does it have a newer, different, but just as good, "character"? Those are impossible questions and it boils down to a Ship of Theseus style argument. Either way, I can't bring myself to assert that the housing supply of Fremont should be artificially constrained by zoning policies, in order to preserve my ideal of what Fremont "should be" or "used to be".
- sliverstorm 9y ago
  I admittedly come to this from a different angle. Many people move to my town for nature & recreation. Every new house & every new infill is less nature, less trails, less recreation. So paradoxically, by moving here, are we killing what we moved here for? Not a Ship of Theseus. In our case redevelopment for density actually helps preserve that character. But I still feel like I can understand the Bay Area home owners.
  - Decade 9y ago
    We should collectively redefine what we are trying to preserve. You recognize that increasing density allows more people to live there without encroaching on the wilderness. As a bonus, increasing density also makes walkable neighborhoods more viable, so more people can live without cars. But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment that some developer created long ago. Then the number of people per unit of land is restricted: homes near economic activity become playthings of the rich, and any new home that is affordable is taking away wildlife habitat and farmland. In short, their stance is understandable, but it is sociopathic. https://www.sfhac.org https://www.sfhac.org
    - sliverstorm 9y ago
      But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment Do you believe this is an honest characterization of their core goal? Is the opposition's number one goal simply to oppose multifamily property? Like, "God ordained that no two families should live in a single structure"? Or is it about property valuation changes, or building height, or street parking, or land use, or decreasing number of (semi-permanent) owners and increasing number of (temporary) renters, or...?
      - Decade 9y ago
        > But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment > Do you believe this is an honest characterization of their core goal? Yes. I can quote Rothstein about racist motivations[0] or Marohn about short-sighted financial recklessness,[1] but I believe more people have nostalgia than malice. Even if they deploy structural racism and racist rhetoric. Most people become set in their ways very quickly, and have difficulty imagining what is good other than what they thought was good when they were young. By now, you cannot find a native-born American who grew up in a time before cars became supreme. Most Americans don’t even remember a time before the Suburban Experiment.[2] So, yes, people will bring up building heights, and respecting the neighborhood, and traffic, and parking über alles, but I think the main motivation is that they can’t imagine someone else can have a good life that is a benefit to the community other than the life that they think is a good life. [0] https://smile.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631492853 https://smile.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segr... [1] https://www.strongtowns.org https://www.strongtowns.org [2] https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/14/americas-suburban-experiment https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/14/ameri...

zackelan 9y ago

> what do you do about people moving to a community for its desirable character but killing that character in the process? Here's what I think is the central (and flawed) assumption in this line of reasoning - people move to an area because of its "character". And that "character" is an intangible, immeasurable quality, but it is somehow diminished if more people move to the area. I grew up in Seattle. Both of my grandparents, when I was a kid, lived in Seattle's Fremont neighborhood. I live in Fremont today. From one perspective, the Fremont of my childhood is completely changed. On the other hand, it's still Fremont, with the Center of the Universe sign and the statue of Lenin and many other things I remember from childhood. Does it have the same "character"? Does it have a newer, different, but just as good, "character"? Those are impossible questions and it boils down to a Ship of Theseus style argument. Either way, I can't bring myself to assert that the housing supply of Fremont should be artificially constrained by zoning policies, in order to preserve my ideal of what Fremont "should be" or "used to be".

sliverstorm 9y ago
I admittedly come to this from a different angle. Many people move to my town for nature & recreation. Every new house & every new infill is less nature, less trails, less recreation. So paradoxically, by moving here, are we killing what we moved here for? Not a Ship of Theseus. In our case redevelopment for density actually helps preserve that character. But I still feel like I can understand the Bay Area home owners.
- Decade 9y ago
  We should collectively redefine what we are trying to preserve. You recognize that increasing density allows more people to live there without encroaching on the wilderness. As a bonus, increasing density also makes walkable neighborhoods more viable, so more people can live without cars. But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment that some developer created long ago. Then the number of people per unit of land is restricted: homes near economic activity become playthings of the rich, and any new home that is affordable is taking away wildlife habitat and farmland. In short, their stance is understandable, but it is sociopathic. https://www.sfhac.org https://www.sfhac.org
  - sliverstorm 9y ago
    But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment Do you believe this is an honest characterization of their core goal? Is the opposition's number one goal simply to oppose multifamily property? Like, "God ordained that no two families should live in a single structure"? Or is it about property valuation changes, or building height, or street parking, or land use, or decreasing number of (semi-permanent) owners and increasing number of (temporary) renters, or...?
    - Decade 9y ago
      > But many voters believe what we should preserve is the single-family home, built environment > Do you believe this is an honest characterization of their core goal? Yes. I can quote Rothstein about racist motivations[0] or Marohn about short-sighted financial recklessness,[1] but I believe more people have nostalgia than malice. Even if they deploy structural racism and racist rhetoric. Most people become set in their ways very quickly, and have difficulty imagining what is good other than what they thought was good when they were young. By now, you cannot find a native-born American who grew up in a time before cars became supreme. Most Americans don’t even remember a time before the Suburban Experiment.[2] So, yes, people will bring up building heights, and respecting the neighborhood, and traffic, and parking über alles, but I think the main motivation is that they can’t imagine someone else can have a good life that is a benefit to the community other than the life that they think is a good life. [0] https://smile.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segregated/dp/1631492853 https://smile.amazon.com/Color-Law-Forgotten-Government-Segr... [1] https://www.strongtowns.org https://www.strongtowns.org [2] https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/14/americas-suburban-experiment https://www.strongtowns.org/curbside-chat-1/2015/12/14/ameri...