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The contrast with tobacco and alcohol (both legal) is ironic. It's also amusing to imagine trying to get something like tea approved under this kind of regulat

by gwern 9y ago

The contrast with tobacco and alcohol (both legal) is ironic. It's also amusing to imagine trying to get something like tea approved under this kind of regulatory regime - fluoride, heavy metals, questions about China pollution, addictive with many known deaths from abuse of the deadly stimulant drug in it (caffeine), unknown potentially synergistic interactions between its psychoactive substances (caffeine+theanine), a risk to dental health, regularly adulterated with other substances, potentially contaminated with coliform or botulinum, and typically consumed in a manner with known health risks and elevated oral cancer classified by IARC as a probable carcinogen (boiling hot water). I wonder how many ordinary things would be de jure or de facto banned these days if they were not grandfathered in.

deleted 9y ago
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tomcooks 9y ago
> known death from abuse of the deadly stimulant drug in it (caffeine) Can you name 1 (one) example of tea (or coffee) induced death?
- TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
  It is feasible to brew enough strong tea, and drink it, to cause cardiac arrest in a susceptible individual. It's extremely unlikely someone would do that, and there's probable enough bitters in tea, especially green tea, to cause the average person to vomit before they ingested too much caffeine from tea. But what green wrote is true and correct: https://www.caffeineinformer.com/a-real-life-death-by-caffeine https://www.caffeineinformer.com/a-real-life-death-by-caffei...
  - vidarh 9y ago
    So it seems these were mainly suicides, and it's about as relevant as blaming water for people intentionally drowning themselves. Worth noting that e.g.the doses listed under energy drinks on that page are well within ranges that have been used in various studies of impact of caffeine on athletic ability. If those levels are dangerous to some it seems likely to require a pre-existing heart problem as there seems to be exceedingly little evidence that those levels are risky to the general population. To reach levels toxic to most people with tea you'd likely end up concentrating it so much you'd end up eating a slurry with a spoon...
- GuB-42 9y ago
  Just Google it. There have been tea related deaths, though not directly related to caffeine and even tea leaves themselves. Caffeine overdose can happen but mostly from pills, you can't drink enough tea to overdose caffeine before overdosing water, which is a real thing btw. I don't like "X caused zero death" arguments. Because if something as common as drinking tea caused zero deaths, it probably means the definition of "causing death" is too narrow. Nothing is perfectly safe. Take tobacco for instance. If you restrict yourself to nicotine overdose, smoking would appear as very safe. The real killer is cancer, and you don't have a direct cause effect relationship. A big increase in probability, sure, but that lung cancer may still have been caused by something else than smoking.
- red75prime 9y ago
  There are probably no deaths undeniably caused by a cigarette either. Not counting the cases of death in fires caused by smoking, or choking on a cigarette.
Alex3917 9y ago
> It's also amusing to imagine trying to get something like tea approved under this kind of regulatory regime A lot of Chinese tea was illegal in the U.S. for the reasons you mention until Clinton repealed the ban in 1996.

by gwern 9y ago

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

tomcooks 9y ago

> known death from abuse of the deadly stimulant drug in it (caffeine) Can you name 1 (one) example of tea (or coffee) induced death?

TheSpiceIsLife 9y ago
It is feasible to brew enough strong tea, and drink it, to cause cardiac arrest in a susceptible individual. It's extremely unlikely someone would do that, and there's probable enough bitters in tea, especially green tea, to cause the average person to vomit before they ingested too much caffeine from tea. But what green wrote is true and correct: https://www.caffeineinformer.com/a-real-life-death-by-caffeine https://www.caffeineinformer.com/a-real-life-death-by-caffei...
- vidarh 9y ago
  So it seems these were mainly suicides, and it's about as relevant as blaming water for people intentionally drowning themselves. Worth noting that e.g.the doses listed under energy drinks on that page are well within ranges that have been used in various studies of impact of caffeine on athletic ability. If those levels are dangerous to some it seems likely to require a pre-existing heart problem as there seems to be exceedingly little evidence that those levels are risky to the general population. To reach levels toxic to most people with tea you'd likely end up concentrating it so much you'd end up eating a slurry with a spoon...
GuB-42 9y ago
Just Google it. There have been tea related deaths, though not directly related to caffeine and even tea leaves themselves. Caffeine overdose can happen but mostly from pills, you can't drink enough tea to overdose caffeine before overdosing water, which is a real thing btw. I don't like "X caused zero death" arguments. Because if something as common as drinking tea caused zero deaths, it probably means the definition of "causing death" is too narrow. Nothing is perfectly safe. Take tobacco for instance. If you restrict yourself to nicotine overdose, smoking would appear as very safe. The real killer is cancer, and you don't have a direct cause effect relationship. A big increase in probability, sure, but that lung cancer may still have been caused by something else than smoking.
red75prime 9y ago
There are probably no deaths undeniably caused by a cigarette either. Not counting the cases of death in fires caused by smoking, or choking on a cigarette.

Alex3917 9y ago

> It's also amusing to imagine trying to get something like tea approved under this kind of regulatory regime A lot of Chinese tea was illegal in the U.S. for the reasons you mention until Clinton repealed the ban in 1996.