5 ms·

Educationism: A Hidden Bias We Often Ignore

70 points by andrewl 9y ago

hprotagonist 9y ago
when i was about 11, i visited my distant cousins on their farm in southern Illinois. My eldest cousin, about 30 at the time, was and is a high school graduate who finished, turned around and went right back to work farming cattle and corn. i figured that 1. i was obviously hot shit at chess and 2. there was no way this hayseed could possibly beat me. when the inevitable humiliating defeat was meted out to me, i did not forget it. On the other side of the coin, i’m still trusting MDs with my medical problems, not the guy down the street whose grandmother has strange ideas about the curative power of crystals, prayer, and raw garlic enemas.
- ambutoir 9y ago
  Garlic enemas are a cheap way to get rid of Flukes, as for curative powers of crystals and prayer, you too have a questionable relationship with semantic structures imbued into silicon crystals.
h0l0cube 9y ago
This article highlights some interesting studies I think people should be more aware of, and a good defense of the argument that privilege compounds itself: '“examiners” scored individuals lower on the same task when they were told that the pupil came from a less privileged background.' 'Those who were told they were “low status individuals” performed worse on both financial decisions and basic cognitive tasks.'
- ashark 9y ago
  > '“examiners” scored individuals lower on the same task when they were told that the pupil came from a less privileged background.' I'm not sure how well-backed-up the assertions actually were (I've not followed up on the references) but the well-regarded and sometimes recommended-on-this-very-site Influence by Cialdini has a chapter on the effects of appearance on others, and especially of wealth/class markers. In particular, it claims a study was conducted that found that pretty much no-one thinks they would defer more readily, when driving, to an expensive-looking car than a cheap-looking one, but in fact people do (in this case, IIRC, waiting longer for them to go after their light turns green before honking) and to a very large degree. Apparently these kinds of results are pretty typical for research along those lines, i.e. self-reported versus actual deference to people who simply look rich/"classy"/powerful, even absent any directly-relevant hierarchy in the equation (i.e. just strangers on otherwise equal footing).
- taneq 9y ago
  Life exists on a slippery slope. Success begets further success, failure (beyond a point) begets failure. Yet at some point in the past few decades we decided to declare that the result of success is "privilege" and is somehow undeserved and unfair.
ghostcluster 9y ago
> A new report in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology named the term “educationism” More shoddy activism handwaving as 'science' for media attention and social policy change. Coin a term for an "effect" with shoddy research meant to advance your poltical ideology. See: Stereotype threat, implicit bias. Sounds suspiciously close to "scientism" as well. > the education system is “motivated to maintain the status quo” – where the children of highly-educated parents go to university, while children with less exposure to education go into vocational training or apprenticeships This whole article is thinly veiled political ideology mixed with pop psychology BS. It's a charade. > “It wasn’t so much overt stigma, but the hidden injuries of social class that kept emerging" Uh huh.
- 549362-30499 9y ago
  > Uh huh. You're casually dismissing a reference to a pretty well known and important work in sociology: https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Injuries-Class-Jonathan-Cobb/dp/039331085X https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Injuries-Class-Jonathan-Cobb/d... I'm happy to buy a copy for you if you send me your address and promise to read it!
  - ghostcluster 9y ago
    From the quoted New Yorker review, > It is an excellent example of social-science work in which the authors do not pretend impartiality a.k.a. Exactly what I'm talking about: Political sctivism via masquerade using the veneer of 'science'
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
    - deleted 9y ago
      [deleted]
  - chewxy 9y ago
    Ooh can I get one? I promise to read it and review it on my blog
nugi 9y ago
A poorly written article for a real issue is frankly, a disservice. Luckily, skill based hiring is quite common, at least in most 'hands on' industries.
- intopieces 9y ago
  Where in the article is hiring mentioned?
ahartman00 9y ago
This article did make some good points. But as a first generation college grad who went to a good school, it also rubbed me the wrong way at times. "It wasn’t so much overt stigma, but the hidden injuries of social class that kept emerging – people kept having to explain themselves" You're going to meet people from different backgrounds. You're going to have to explain yourself to them. You're going to have to listen to them. I don't know how many times I've had to explain that having your parents buy a $30,000 car isn't poor, just because peers got a $60,000 car. There are people whose parents can't buy new cars. But that's the environment they grew up in, of course they can't understand. I had a hard time imagining that an adult would think buying a 16 year old a sports car is a good idea, given their higher accident rates and poor decision making skills. Are we really lowering the standard this much? You can't be expected to have to meet people from different backgrounds? Which brings me to: "If you have low expectations of the kids they'll sink to the level of expectations" Exactly. Maybe setting the expectations that they never feel uncomfortable, never have their ideas challenged is a bad idea?? In the articles defense, they did mention telling all kids to set their goals high. "Bourdieu pointed to the fact that the education system was invented by the ruling classes", "Here in Switzerland they abolished grades in one place but there was an uprising mainly due to parents who all of a sudden couldn’t figure out how their kids were doing" Maybe I am reading too much into these quotes, but really? The article mentions that education is linked to success, but also seems to try to paint the picture that the ruling class invented education to keep the lower classes down? And those evil parents, caring how their kids did in school? Can someone tell me if I am misinterpreting these quotes?
- jimmaswell 9y ago
  I made it through college not explaining anything to anybody. I wasn't a hermit, family wealth just never came up.
  - ahartman00 9y ago
    This really made me think. I suppose I could have done the same. It just makes me sad when people who have a great life are upset because they compare themselves to the Jones. And while family wealth never explicitly came up, complaining about a new $30k car at age 16 is a close proxy for family wealth. I also wasnt trying to complain about others being wealthy, or talking about it. I didn't feel like I didn't belong, as the article seems to hint at. Perhaps I shouldn't have felt compelled to explain myself. The points I was trying to make were other people assuming everyone is wealthy should be irrelevant to your academic success. People assuming anything about you shouldn't stop you. If that is what causes you to not pursue higher education, then I would say that is on you. Secondly, you aren't always going to be among people who are exactly like you. In fact, I think this is an important part of college. Partly, this was a rant against what I see as lowing the expectations for young adults. Life is hard sometimes, excuses won't help.
ageek123 9y ago
The scary part is when enough politicians start believing this nonsense about "ableism" and "educationism" that the government decides to forbid companies from discriminating based on applicants' abilities. We're frighteningly close to that point already with demands from activists that every possible group be hired, paid, and promoted at exactly the same rate.
- closeparen 9y ago
  That would be a silly reaction. A more reasonable one might be increased support for progressive taxation/redistribution/social safety net, if we consider one’s station in life to be more inherited than earned.
  - ageek123 9y ago
    I agree.
  - tomjen3 9y ago
    True, but politicians often make objectively silly arguments.
bearmobius 9y ago
"A subtle form of discrimination exists towards those who are less educated and it divides society in a number of ways." Wrong - it's not always so subtle! For instance, there's widespread, blatant discrimination against people lacking medical degrees for performing complex surgical procedures. We should really work to correct this systemic bias for a more equal and inclusive society. /sarcasm
- chongli 9y ago
  You're equivocating on the word discrimination. When activists or people in the media talk about discrimination as a societal problem, they're referring to discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics. Not letting someone without a medical degree practice medicine is discrimination based on relevant characteristics. Not letting a licensed surgeon practice because he uses non-standard English in a way that marks him as having an underprivileged background is discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics. Nobody is arguing that we should allow blind people to drive cars. However, you'll face heavy resistance if you try to suggest that only people with a university degree should be allowed to drive cars.
  - thaumasiotes 9y ago
    > You're equivocating on the word discrimination. When activists or people in the media talk about discrimination as a societal problem, they're referring to discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics You're not doing better. They're referring to discrimination that they don't like. In general, they make no effort to establish that such discrimination is based on irrelevant characteristics, only to claim that it is.
  - gizmo686 9y ago
    The problem is that there is no distinction of kind between these two types of discrimination. The only difference is of accuracy. For instance, say I am consciously biased against hiring black people because I believe them to be generally less qualified. This is the same type of discrimination as not hiring a credentialed doctor because I believe them to be less qualified; not only difference that one of these beliefs is factually inaccurate. When you say that activists are only talking about the "bad" discrimination, you implicitly sweep under the rug questions about the factual basis for discrimination; and end up treating questions of fact as if they were questions of morals. Unfortunately, determining relevant characteristics is incredibly hard (especially if people know what measures you use). Instead we use our intuition and gut feeling. It is important to be aware of inaccurate intuitions we have to improve our assesments. However, there is no easy way to tell a-priori what discrimination is based on an accurate signal, and what discrimination is not.
aportnoy 9y ago
Who said bias is bad?
- intopieces 9y ago
  bi·as ˈbīəs/ noun 1. a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned: illegal bias against older job applicants; the magazine’s bias toward art rather than photography; http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias?s=t http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias?s=t If you need evidence that bias is bad, there is a host of nonfiction literature by the likes of Nobel prize winning economists on the subject.
- throwanem 9y ago
  I mean sure, if you're not interested in accurately perceiving reality so as to act most effectively in the world and thus discharge the responsibility a share in which you inherited just as we all do, why care?
nitwit005 9y ago
The intro example here is a bit confusing. It seems to suggest that the student was less educated than the others, but presumably he had roughly the same education level as the other new students. He just came from a poor background, and had an accent. That seems more like conventional class discrimination.
Rubinsalamander 9y ago
If you have a Bias about something you dont have to "spend" as much brainpower to reach a conclusion. Its what allows us to function in our life because thinking everything over again would be too taxing. We would get nothing done. So we rely on social cues(thats the way most people do it...) our own experience in the past( biased data..) to make decisions. So biases are kind of the necessary. But in some instances the extra effort for unbiased decisions is worth it. Ignoring "Educationism" as a recruiter should be one of it. But to eradicate a bias is kind of Impossible. Its just possible to change or replace it with another one.
digi_owl 9y ago
The worst element of this is the idea that seemed to wash over the European labor parties in the 80s. That all social ills can be solved with a more educated populous. End result was that said parties has taken a more rightward turn in their policies, and are only just starting to maybe realize their folly.
anabis 9y ago
Its called "学歴主義" in Japan, and talked about a lot here (565,000 hits on Google vs 9,000 for "Educationism") One of the most egregious example is that when scheduling for a job interview via Web form, when you graduated from a low-ranked university its always "schedule full". This is called "学歴フィルター(filter)."

70 points by andrewl 9y ago

when i was about 11, i visited my distant cousins on their farm in southern Illinois. My eldest cousin, about 30 at the time, was and is a high school graduate who finished, turned around and went right back to work farming cattle and corn. i figured that 1. i was obviously hot shit at chess and 2. there was no way this hayseed could possibly beat me. when the inevitable humiliating defeat was meted out to me, i did not forget it. On the other side of the coin, i’m still trusting MDs with my medical problems, not the guy down the street whose grandmother has strange ideas about the curative power of crystals, prayer, and raw garlic enemas.

ambutoir 9y ago
Garlic enemas are a cheap way to get rid of Flukes, as for curative powers of crystals and prayer, you too have a questionable relationship with semantic structures imbued into silicon crystals.

h0l0cube 9y ago

This article highlights some interesting studies I think people should be more aware of, and a good defense of the argument that privilege compounds itself: '“examiners” scored individuals lower on the same task when they were told that the pupil came from a less privileged background.' 'Those who were told they were “low status individuals” performed worse on both financial decisions and basic cognitive tasks.'

ashark 9y ago
> '“examiners” scored individuals lower on the same task when they were told that the pupil came from a less privileged background.' I'm not sure how well-backed-up the assertions actually were (I've not followed up on the references) but the well-regarded and sometimes recommended-on-this-very-site Influence by Cialdini has a chapter on the effects of appearance on others, and especially of wealth/class markers. In particular, it claims a study was conducted that found that pretty much no-one thinks they would defer more readily, when driving, to an expensive-looking car than a cheap-looking one, but in fact people do (in this case, IIRC, waiting longer for them to go after their light turns green before honking) and to a very large degree. Apparently these kinds of results are pretty typical for research along those lines, i.e. self-reported versus actual deference to people who simply look rich/"classy"/powerful, even absent any directly-relevant hierarchy in the equation (i.e. just strangers on otherwise equal footing).
taneq 9y ago
Life exists on a slippery slope. Success begets further success, failure (beyond a point) begets failure. Yet at some point in the past few decades we decided to declare that the result of success is "privilege" and is somehow undeserved and unfair.

ghostcluster 9y ago

> A new report in the Journal of Experimental Social Psychology named the term “educationism” More shoddy activism handwaving as 'science' for media attention and social policy change. Coin a term for an "effect" with shoddy research meant to advance your poltical ideology. See: Stereotype threat, implicit bias. Sounds suspiciously close to "scientism" as well. > the education system is “motivated to maintain the status quo” – where the children of highly-educated parents go to university, while children with less exposure to education go into vocational training or apprenticeships This whole article is thinly veiled political ideology mixed with pop psychology BS. It's a charade. > “It wasn’t so much overt stigma, but the hidden injuries of social class that kept emerging" Uh huh.

549362-30499 9y ago
> Uh huh. You're casually dismissing a reference to a pretty well known and important work in sociology: https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Injuries-Class-Jonathan-Cobb/dp/039331085X https://www.amazon.com/Hidden-Injuries-Class-Jonathan-Cobb/d... I'm happy to buy a copy for you if you send me your address and promise to read it!
- ghostcluster 9y ago
  From the quoted New Yorker review, > It is an excellent example of social-science work in which the authors do not pretend impartiality a.k.a. Exactly what I'm talking about: Political sctivism via masquerade using the veneer of 'science'
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
- chewxy 9y ago
  Ooh can I get one? I promise to read it and review it on my blog

nugi 9y ago

A poorly written article for a real issue is frankly, a disservice. Luckily, skill based hiring is quite common, at least in most 'hands on' industries.

intopieces 9y ago
Where in the article is hiring mentioned?

ahartman00 9y ago

This article did make some good points. But as a first generation college grad who went to a good school, it also rubbed me the wrong way at times. "It wasn’t so much overt stigma, but the hidden injuries of social class that kept emerging – people kept having to explain themselves" You're going to meet people from different backgrounds. You're going to have to explain yourself to them. You're going to have to listen to them. I don't know how many times I've had to explain that having your parents buy a $30,000 car isn't poor, just because peers got a $60,000 car. There are people whose parents can't buy new cars. But that's the environment they grew up in, of course they can't understand. I had a hard time imagining that an adult would think buying a 16 year old a sports car is a good idea, given their higher accident rates and poor decision making skills. Are we really lowering the standard this much? You can't be expected to have to meet people from different backgrounds? Which brings me to: "If you have low expectations of the kids they'll sink to the level of expectations" Exactly. Maybe setting the expectations that they never feel uncomfortable, never have their ideas challenged is a bad idea?? In the articles defense, they did mention telling all kids to set their goals high. "Bourdieu pointed to the fact that the education system was invented by the ruling classes", "Here in Switzerland they abolished grades in one place but there was an uprising mainly due to parents who all of a sudden couldn’t figure out how their kids were doing" Maybe I am reading too much into these quotes, but really? The article mentions that education is linked to success, but also seems to try to paint the picture that the ruling class invented education to keep the lower classes down? And those evil parents, caring how their kids did in school? Can someone tell me if I am misinterpreting these quotes?

jimmaswell 9y ago
I made it through college not explaining anything to anybody. I wasn't a hermit, family wealth just never came up.
- ahartman00 9y ago
  This really made me think. I suppose I could have done the same. It just makes me sad when people who have a great life are upset because they compare themselves to the Jones. And while family wealth never explicitly came up, complaining about a new $30k car at age 16 is a close proxy for family wealth. I also wasnt trying to complain about others being wealthy, or talking about it. I didn't feel like I didn't belong, as the article seems to hint at. Perhaps I shouldn't have felt compelled to explain myself. The points I was trying to make were other people assuming everyone is wealthy should be irrelevant to your academic success. People assuming anything about you shouldn't stop you. If that is what causes you to not pursue higher education, then I would say that is on you. Secondly, you aren't always going to be among people who are exactly like you. In fact, I think this is an important part of college. Partly, this was a rant against what I see as lowing the expectations for young adults. Life is hard sometimes, excuses won't help.

ageek123 9y ago

The scary part is when enough politicians start believing this nonsense about "ableism" and "educationism" that the government decides to forbid companies from discriminating based on applicants' abilities. We're frighteningly close to that point already with demands from activists that every possible group be hired, paid, and promoted at exactly the same rate.

closeparen 9y ago
That would be a silly reaction. A more reasonable one might be increased support for progressive taxation/redistribution/social safety net, if we consider one’s station in life to be more inherited than earned.
- ageek123 9y ago
  I agree.
- tomjen3 9y ago
  True, but politicians often make objectively silly arguments.

bearmobius 9y ago

"A subtle form of discrimination exists towards those who are less educated and it divides society in a number of ways." Wrong - it's not always so subtle! For instance, there's widespread, blatant discrimination against people lacking medical degrees for performing complex surgical procedures. We should really work to correct this systemic bias for a more equal and inclusive society. /sarcasm

chongli 9y ago
You're equivocating on the word discrimination. When activists or people in the media talk about discrimination as a societal problem, they're referring to discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics. Not letting someone without a medical degree practice medicine is discrimination based on relevant characteristics. Not letting a licensed surgeon practice because he uses non-standard English in a way that marks him as having an underprivileged background is discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics. Nobody is arguing that we should allow blind people to drive cars. However, you'll face heavy resistance if you try to suggest that only people with a university degree should be allowed to drive cars.
- thaumasiotes 9y ago
  > You're equivocating on the word discrimination. When activists or people in the media talk about discrimination as a societal problem, they're referring to discrimination based on irrelevant characteristics You're not doing better. They're referring to discrimination that they don't like. In general, they make no effort to establish that such discrimination is based on irrelevant characteristics, only to claim that it is.
- gizmo686 9y ago
  The problem is that there is no distinction of kind between these two types of discrimination. The only difference is of accuracy. For instance, say I am consciously biased against hiring black people because I believe them to be generally less qualified. This is the same type of discrimination as not hiring a credentialed doctor because I believe them to be less qualified; not only difference that one of these beliefs is factually inaccurate. When you say that activists are only talking about the "bad" discrimination, you implicitly sweep under the rug questions about the factual basis for discrimination; and end up treating questions of fact as if they were questions of morals. Unfortunately, determining relevant characteristics is incredibly hard (especially if people know what measures you use). Instead we use our intuition and gut feeling. It is important to be aware of inaccurate intuitions we have to improve our assesments. However, there is no easy way to tell a-priori what discrimination is based on an accurate signal, and what discrimination is not.

aportnoy 9y ago

Who said bias is bad?

intopieces 9y ago
bi·as ˈbīəs/ noun 1. a particular tendency, trend, inclination, feeling, or opinion, especially one that is preconceived or unreasoned: illegal bias against older job applicants; the magazine’s bias toward art rather than photography; http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias?s=t http://www.dictionary.com/browse/bias?s=t If you need evidence that bias is bad, there is a host of nonfiction literature by the likes of Nobel prize winning economists on the subject.
throwanem 9y ago
I mean sure, if you're not interested in accurately perceiving reality so as to act most effectively in the world and thus discharge the responsibility a share in which you inherited just as we all do, why care?

nitwit005 9y ago

The intro example here is a bit confusing. It seems to suggest that the student was less educated than the others, but presumably he had roughly the same education level as the other new students. He just came from a poor background, and had an accent. That seems more like conventional class discrimination.

Rubinsalamander 9y ago

If you have a Bias about something you dont have to "spend" as much brainpower to reach a conclusion. Its what allows us to function in our life because thinking everything over again would be too taxing. We would get nothing done. So we rely on social cues(thats the way most people do it...) our own experience in the past( biased data..) to make decisions. So biases are kind of the necessary. But in some instances the extra effort for unbiased decisions is worth it. Ignoring "Educationism" as a recruiter should be one of it. But to eradicate a bias is kind of Impossible. Its just possible to change or replace it with another one.

digi_owl 9y ago

The worst element of this is the idea that seemed to wash over the European labor parties in the 80s. That all social ills can be solved with a more educated populous. End result was that said parties has taken a more rightward turn in their policies, and are only just starting to maybe realize their folly.

anabis 9y ago

Its called "学歴主義" in Japan, and talked about a lot here (565,000 hits on Google vs 9,000 for "Educationism") One of the most egregious example is that when scheduling for a job interview via Web form, when you graduated from a low-ranked university its always "schedule full". This is called "学歴フィルター(filter)."