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I think you can. I changed the very dynamic of my family by changing myself. I grew up with a snippy and grouchy mother, and so I was a snippy and grouchy paren

I think you can. I changed the very dynamic of my family by changing myself. I grew up with a snippy and grouchy mother, and so I was a snippy and grouchy parent. But when I saw my kids treating eachother poorly for far too long, and nothing I did fixed anything. I changed my tactics completely. I stopped being grouchy and snippy. Or at least at first I stopped expressing myself this way to them. I was determined to end this trend, no matter what. After a few months (literally) of me not raising my voice, unless it was totally and completely justified (which I discovered was very rare) I could then say to my kids (and wife), I expect you to talk nice and decently to eachother, and as soon as they accused me of being grouchy, I pointed out that I hadn't been for months, and something changed, everyone started to listen to me, even when I talked quietly. I've become a morning person, I started jogging about 5 years ago (I hated exercise), I stopped eating white sugar in 1995 (because it was controlling me like a narcotic), and I have worked on many of my other bad habits and traits. I think anyone can change anything. And I really like reading about other people's successes in self change as well. Everything from quitting smoking, losing weight, success in work and relationships brought back from the brink of destruction. We just need enough of a reason to do something, and then we can do it. The trick seems to be, can you make up your own reasons? I know we can. (also I defeated crippling life long depression, food addictions, weight loss, and few other things many people want to label "diseases" we have no cure for or control over, I call bologna on that, we can change anything.)

mtpn 9y ago
> I call bologna on that, we can change anything. Please be cautious about making such statements. I respect your experience and success at changing things for yourself with this model. I don't for a second doubt your sincerity. But the belief that a depressed/addicted person could get better if they just tried harder is part of a very dangerous feedback loop when you are down. You can't control everything you experience or the feelings you have. You can, sometimes, control your interpretation and response to those things, if you are careful. You can do everything right and still not be able to break the cycle. We're all different, I'm glad this worked for you but it doesn't necessarily follow that your approach would help others.
- fao_ 9y ago
  Exactly this. It especially applies to people who cope with self-worth problems. The "Just try harder" becomes "I can do it, why can't you", which becomes "You can't do it because of X", which over time morphs into "You can't do it because you're worthless". Of course, because those thought-patterns increases stress and self-burden, this can lead to never-ending cycles where the person is literally rendered incapable of breaking out of the cycle.
  - RobertRoberts 9y ago
    "self worth" problems are lie foisted on you. You value yourself more than anyone else, and I can prove it. How much time and money do you spend taking care of yourself vs taking care of other people? How much time do you spend thinking about your own problems vs other people's problems. One of the first things I considered that changed my life was to worry about other people more than myself. If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does. Depression is a recursive self sadness. No one I have ever met, heard of or read about was truly depressed because of other people's problems.
    - mauritzio 9y ago
      Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I suppose you probably just buy glasses. Just because you found something out about yourself in a limited area, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody and anything. Maybe you could start and try to work on beeing humble ;)
      - RobertRoberts 9y ago
        >Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Yes, they are based on chemicals. Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy? And yes, chemicals affect everybody differently. But it's scientifically proven that you have control over your feelings. Unless you have some incredible toxin overload, or you have a glandular problem, you can do something about depression without a doctor. Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way? (edit: @baddox - https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking ) Edit: > Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I learned from a Swiss airforce fighter jet pilot about eye exercises to help with vision loss. (maybe it's common knowledge, but that's where I heard it) So I guess it depends.
visarga 9y ago
I don't think you could 'think yourself' into a different personality, because that would be unadaptive for survival. Your reward structure (what makes you tick) is fixed, it is just the strategies that can be learned. > I call bologna on that, we can change anything. As you said, you grew up with a snippy and grouchy mother, and you were snippy and grouchy yourself. Then, in a different context, you stopped being snippy and grouchy and you were still OK. My conclusion is that you haven't changed, what changed was the context. First you were a child dealing with his s&g mother, then you were a parent responsible for his children. Context activates or inactivates parts of personality, like a colored cloth shines through a diamond sitting on it - the color doesn't come from the diamond itself. My theory about personality is that it has an "active" part and a "dormant" part, which change depending on context. Each context (usually each person you are dealing with) activates a different subset of your personality. Some people bring the worst in you, other people bring the best. With some you don't like yourself, with others you love yourself. Besides context, personality appears to change with improved self-knowledge - as you age, you encounter more situations that shine light on your personality, as conditioned by the external context. You still have the same personality, but you know it better. The best way to control your personality is to control your external interactions and know yourself, not to force yourself to be different. Change context, change personality.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  >My conclusion is that you haven't changed, what changed was the context. First you were a child, then you were a parent. Yes, but I was crappy parent for 10 years, not just a short time. I raised a daughter to adulthood poorly, and I have regretted it and have had to make amends. So context didn't change at all. What changed was I saw the future of a family that treated each other badly, and I was so desperate for that not to happen, I was able to change myself. I had to change how I treated people, and then they changed around me. Also, I can confirm with full confidence that when my wife and I were first together, I was not grumpy and snippy. She told me that was one of the things she really liked about me, was how calm and reasonable I was. Perhaps, the family part coming along could be considered a context change as kids came into the picture, the stresses of life, etc... and this brought out the "dormant" grouchy person. But I have found that every person has a limit. Everyone can go crazy, turn crabby, or become mean and selfish under the right circumstances. But not everyone will fight against it.
chubot 9y ago
Thanks for the story -- that is great to hear. While I don't have kids, many of my friends do, and it is uncanny how kids pick up their parents' worst behavior. I used to think of this as a depressing inevitability, but I agree with you that it's not. And I agree that "reasons" and motivation are the main driver for change. I think smoking is a great analogy, because everyone it's now "objectively" bad. I used to smoke, but I would convince myself that it's OK. "I don't smoke that much", etc. But that was because I wanted to smoke (circular logic). My reptile brain convinced me that it was OK. Likewise I think many people convince themselves that their behavior is OK, because their reptile brain wants to keep doing it. But the first step is just to admit that what you're doing is not OK, even if you "plan" to keep doing it. If you admit it to yourself for long enough, you might eventually get the motivation to change.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  Also, I found that even after changing a few things in my life. The next thing I faced still hurt to change. But I was stronger facing it. There are people I have met in way worse circumstances than me, and they made it. I found the more I looked for answers, the less excuses I could give myself unless I wanted to just lie to myself and believe my own lies.
JamesBarney 9y ago
So the inside view is "I succeeded at all of these remarkable achievements which lots of other people have failed at, but if they did what I did they'd be able to solve all these problems" Maybe also think of your experience a little with the outside view which is "For 50 years society has been trying to figure out how to reproducibly cure depression, aggression and weight loss. Millions of people, and tens of thousands of scientists having failed at creating a reproducible way of solving these problems. Over those years several hundred people have achieved those goals and thought that their results were reproducible. None of them to this day have reproducibly solved any of these problems. One new person solves these problems for himself and believe his results are reproducible." Now there are two possibilities. That one guys stumbled across a reproducible solution to weightloss, depression, and aggression that once it is studied will lead to a new gold standard of therapy for each of these problems. Or that guy found a unique solution to his own problem that will probably not be reproducible or scale. If it's the second then maybe think that your very impressive experience with change is not universal.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  >Or that guy found a unique solution to his own problem that will probably not be reproducible or scale. Yes, I found my solution. And what I think it means is that others can find theirs. Is that impossible? Or to lower the bar, is it even unreasonable? I was at a point where I felt like nothing was going to change, and I simply had to believe other people saying "things can change" and "don't give up". And I want to pass this on to others, that they can. Anyone can run 10 minutes a day, anyone. And I truly believe that if you are overweight, but otherwise healthy, you will lose weight by exercising and improving your diet.
- dasil003 9y ago
  This is looking at the problem through the lens of science. Science has given us such remarkable advancements and debunked so many lies that it is natural—especially among engineering types—to hold it up to as the gold standard for solutions to broad problems. But when it comes to personal issues, especially behavioral or psychological ones, there's a good chance even the description of symptoms is not consistent between individuals. Whatever facts and metrics doctors and researchers have available are far removed from the subjective experience of patients. A more useful lens IMHO is the belief that one can change ones own thoughts and behaviors. I'm not claiming it's universally true, but I'm damn sure if one doesn't believe one can change then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is not an excuse to judge others for not always being the best person they can be, it's merely meant to give a little bit of self-empowerment. I acknowledge it doesn't work all the time, and it's all too easy to twist into self-flagellation, but claiming some agency in ones own life experience is something that can help a lot of different people in a lot of different ways.
rwnspace 9y ago
No - YOU can change anything. Very fortunate for you. After years of disabling depression, it wasn't until I had some very lucky breaks and found the right medication that I was able to start treating myself decently, at least some of the time, and it was months after that I was able to begin working on my life and taking things on. Very fortunate for me. There are components to depression that make it less and less tractable as it advances. Sometimes personal responsibility is the last thing you need; other times it is the first. To nurse a starving person back to health, it is important to feed them, as much as it is for them to /regularly/ exert themselves to an extent they can manage. That can be as little as brushing their teeth, to start. And that daily regularity can only be achieved with nutrients - real and analogical! The internet seems to be awash with bootstrap psychotherapeutic approaches to depression -- do your CBT, do mindfulness. These can work, but they do involve a load; often there are social components to depression that reduce load-bearing capabilities significantly, and this fact should be recognised. As efficacious as those treatments otherwise seem to be.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  >No - YOU can change anything....I was able to start treating myself decently You are the one who found the answer. You did the work, you didn't give up until you found a solution. Does it really matter what the solution is? Maybe in a broader sense, some solutions are better than others. But I am advocating that things can get better because our choices and actions, and you can do it. And you stated that you have. If you read my other comments, you will see that I agree with you. That people need help, they can't do it on their own, I certainly didn't. But no matter what happens, no matter how much help you give someone, if they don't do something also, nothing will change for them.
gadders 9y ago
You story reminded me of this quote by the Western author, Louis L'Amour: “Up to a point a person’s life is shaped by environment, heredity, and changes in the world about them. Then there comes a time when it lies within their grasp to shape the clay of their life into the sort of thing they wish it to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune or the quirks of fate. Everyone has the power to say, "This I am today. That I shall be tomorrow.” ― Louis L'Amour, The Walking Drum I don't think it's completely as simple as he says, but anyone can improve themselves.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  I think the first step is simple, but hard. From there it gets complex, but not too complex for anyone to deal with. After all, they aren't dealing with anything more than their own life. I like that quote, I will pass it on to my father, he likes L'Amour. ty.

mtpn 9y ago

> I call bologna on that, we can change anything. Please be cautious about making such statements. I respect your experience and success at changing things for yourself with this model. I don't for a second doubt your sincerity. But the belief that a depressed/addicted person could get better if they just tried harder is part of a very dangerous feedback loop when you are down. You can't control everything you experience or the feelings you have. You can, sometimes, control your interpretation and response to those things, if you are careful. You can do everything right and still not be able to break the cycle. We're all different, I'm glad this worked for you but it doesn't necessarily follow that your approach would help others.

fao_ 9y ago
Exactly this. It especially applies to people who cope with self-worth problems. The "Just try harder" becomes "I can do it, why can't you", which becomes "You can't do it because of X", which over time morphs into "You can't do it because you're worthless". Of course, because those thought-patterns increases stress and self-burden, this can lead to never-ending cycles where the person is literally rendered incapable of breaking out of the cycle.
- RobertRoberts 9y ago
  "self worth" problems are lie foisted on you. You value yourself more than anyone else, and I can prove it. How much time and money do you spend taking care of yourself vs taking care of other people? How much time do you spend thinking about your own problems vs other people's problems. One of the first things I considered that changed my life was to worry about other people more than myself. If you do that, it's not possible to be depressed. If you try this and it doesn't work, keep worrying about other people more than yourself until it does. Depression is a recursive self sadness. No one I have ever met, heard of or read about was truly depressed because of other people's problems.
  - mauritzio 9y ago
    Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I suppose you probably just buy glasses. Just because you found something out about yourself in a limited area, it doesn't mean it applies to everybody and anything. Maybe you could start and try to work on beeing humble ;)
    - RobertRoberts 9y ago
      >Sorry but mental health issues like depression are related to chemical dysfunctions. Yes, they are based on chemicals. Also, did you know that by smiling and being nice to people you can add chemicals into your body that make you happy? And yes, chemicals affect everybody differently. But it's scientifically proven that you have control over your feelings. Unless you have some incredible toxin overload, or you have a glandular problem, you can do something about depression without a doctor. Unless you think that people who have chemical addictions like smoking and drinking also don't have control over themselves in a similar way? (edit: @baddox - https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking https://www.quora.com/Can-anyone-really-quit-smoking ) Edit: > Would you say when your eyes become bad just try harder and work on yourself, I learned from a Swiss airforce fighter jet pilot about eye exercises to help with vision loss. (maybe it's common knowledge, but that's where I heard it) So I guess it depends.

visarga 9y ago

I don't think you could 'think yourself' into a different personality, because that would be unadaptive for survival. Your reward structure (what makes you tick) is fixed, it is just the strategies that can be learned. > I call bologna on that, we can change anything. As you said, you grew up with a snippy and grouchy mother, and you were snippy and grouchy yourself. Then, in a different context, you stopped being snippy and grouchy and you were still OK. My conclusion is that you haven't changed, what changed was the context. First you were a child dealing with his s&g mother, then you were a parent responsible for his children. Context activates or inactivates parts of personality, like a colored cloth shines through a diamond sitting on it - the color doesn't come from the diamond itself. My theory about personality is that it has an "active" part and a "dormant" part, which change depending on context. Each context (usually each person you are dealing with) activates a different subset of your personality. Some people bring the worst in you, other people bring the best. With some you don't like yourself, with others you love yourself. Besides context, personality appears to change with improved self-knowledge - as you age, you encounter more situations that shine light on your personality, as conditioned by the external context. You still have the same personality, but you know it better. The best way to control your personality is to control your external interactions and know yourself, not to force yourself to be different. Change context, change personality.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
>My conclusion is that you haven't changed, what changed was the context. First you were a child, then you were a parent. Yes, but I was crappy parent for 10 years, not just a short time. I raised a daughter to adulthood poorly, and I have regretted it and have had to make amends. So context didn't change at all. What changed was I saw the future of a family that treated each other badly, and I was so desperate for that not to happen, I was able to change myself. I had to change how I treated people, and then they changed around me. Also, I can confirm with full confidence that when my wife and I were first together, I was not grumpy and snippy. She told me that was one of the things she really liked about me, was how calm and reasonable I was. Perhaps, the family part coming along could be considered a context change as kids came into the picture, the stresses of life, etc... and this brought out the "dormant" grouchy person. But I have found that every person has a limit. Everyone can go crazy, turn crabby, or become mean and selfish under the right circumstances. But not everyone will fight against it.

chubot 9y ago

Thanks for the story -- that is great to hear. While I don't have kids, many of my friends do, and it is uncanny how kids pick up their parents' worst behavior. I used to think of this as a depressing inevitability, but I agree with you that it's not. And I agree that "reasons" and motivation are the main driver for change. I think smoking is a great analogy, because everyone it's now "objectively" bad. I used to smoke, but I would convince myself that it's OK. "I don't smoke that much", etc. But that was because I wanted to smoke (circular logic). My reptile brain convinced me that it was OK. Likewise I think many people convince themselves that their behavior is OK, because their reptile brain wants to keep doing it. But the first step is just to admit that what you're doing is not OK, even if you "plan" to keep doing it. If you admit it to yourself for long enough, you might eventually get the motivation to change.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
Also, I found that even after changing a few things in my life. The next thing I faced still hurt to change. But I was stronger facing it. There are people I have met in way worse circumstances than me, and they made it. I found the more I looked for answers, the less excuses I could give myself unless I wanted to just lie to myself and believe my own lies.

JamesBarney 9y ago

So the inside view is "I succeeded at all of these remarkable achievements which lots of other people have failed at, but if they did what I did they'd be able to solve all these problems" Maybe also think of your experience a little with the outside view which is "For 50 years society has been trying to figure out how to reproducibly cure depression, aggression and weight loss. Millions of people, and tens of thousands of scientists having failed at creating a reproducible way of solving these problems. Over those years several hundred people have achieved those goals and thought that their results were reproducible. None of them to this day have reproducibly solved any of these problems. One new person solves these problems for himself and believe his results are reproducible." Now there are two possibilities. That one guys stumbled across a reproducible solution to weightloss, depression, and aggression that once it is studied will lead to a new gold standard of therapy for each of these problems. Or that guy found a unique solution to his own problem that will probably not be reproducible or scale. If it's the second then maybe think that your very impressive experience with change is not universal.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
>Or that guy found a unique solution to his own problem that will probably not be reproducible or scale. Yes, I found my solution. And what I think it means is that others can find theirs. Is that impossible? Or to lower the bar, is it even unreasonable? I was at a point where I felt like nothing was going to change, and I simply had to believe other people saying "things can change" and "don't give up". And I want to pass this on to others, that they can. Anyone can run 10 minutes a day, anyone. And I truly believe that if you are overweight, but otherwise healthy, you will lose weight by exercising and improving your diet.
dasil003 9y ago
This is looking at the problem through the lens of science. Science has given us such remarkable advancements and debunked so many lies that it is natural—especially among engineering types—to hold it up to as the gold standard for solutions to broad problems. But when it comes to personal issues, especially behavioral or psychological ones, there's a good chance even the description of symptoms is not consistent between individuals. Whatever facts and metrics doctors and researchers have available are far removed from the subjective experience of patients. A more useful lens IMHO is the belief that one can change ones own thoughts and behaviors. I'm not claiming it's universally true, but I'm damn sure if one doesn't believe one can change then it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is not an excuse to judge others for not always being the best person they can be, it's merely meant to give a little bit of self-empowerment. I acknowledge it doesn't work all the time, and it's all too easy to twist into self-flagellation, but claiming some agency in ones own life experience is something that can help a lot of different people in a lot of different ways.

rwnspace 9y ago

No - YOU can change anything. Very fortunate for you. After years of disabling depression, it wasn't until I had some very lucky breaks and found the right medication that I was able to start treating myself decently, at least some of the time, and it was months after that I was able to begin working on my life and taking things on. Very fortunate for me. There are components to depression that make it less and less tractable as it advances. Sometimes personal responsibility is the last thing you need; other times it is the first. To nurse a starving person back to health, it is important to feed them, as much as it is for them to /regularly/ exert themselves to an extent they can manage. That can be as little as brushing their teeth, to start. And that daily regularity can only be achieved with nutrients - real and analogical! The internet seems to be awash with bootstrap psychotherapeutic approaches to depression -- do your CBT, do mindfulness. These can work, but they do involve a load; often there are social components to depression that reduce load-bearing capabilities significantly, and this fact should be recognised. As efficacious as those treatments otherwise seem to be.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
RobertRoberts 9y ago
>No - YOU can change anything....I was able to start treating myself decently You are the one who found the answer. You did the work, you didn't give up until you found a solution. Does it really matter what the solution is? Maybe in a broader sense, some solutions are better than others. But I am advocating that things can get better because our choices and actions, and you can do it. And you stated that you have. If you read my other comments, you will see that I agree with you. That people need help, they can't do it on their own, I certainly didn't. But no matter what happens, no matter how much help you give someone, if they don't do something also, nothing will change for them.

gadders 9y ago

You story reminded me of this quote by the Western author, Louis L'Amour: “Up to a point a person’s life is shaped by environment, heredity, and changes in the world about them. Then there comes a time when it lies within their grasp to shape the clay of their life into the sort of thing they wish it to be. Only the weak blame parents, their race, their times, lack of good fortune or the quirks of fate. Everyone has the power to say, "This I am today. That I shall be tomorrow.” ― Louis L'Amour, The Walking Drum I don't think it's completely as simple as he says, but anyone can improve themselves.

RobertRoberts 9y ago
I think the first step is simple, but hard. From there it gets complex, but not too complex for anyone to deal with. After all, they aren't dealing with anything more than their own life. I like that quote, I will pass it on to my father, he likes L'Amour. ty.