4 ms·

What implications, if any, does this have for the future of JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, etc.?

by bitsai 16y ago

bconway 16y ago
Seconded. If Oracle is going to turn Java into a minefield, it's going to have big repercussions in future uptake.
- recoil 16y ago
  I think this is much bigger than just Java. The patents in question relate to the whole field of VM implementation, not simply Java VM implementation. On the surface this really appears to have very little to do with Java the language. For a start, Dalvik is not a JVM implementation at all, in fact it's quite a different beast. See, e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_application_virtual_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_application_virtu... which lists Dalvik as a register machine rather than a stack machine: definitely not a trivial difference. Google's toolchain converts from JVM bytecode to Dalvik bytecode, which is probably what Oracle are going after with #5,966,702 but the rest of the patents are much more general. If anything Oracle are turning VM implementation in general into a patent minefield, not Java alone.
michaelfairley 16y ago
It looks like the patents that Oracle is claiming are being infringed upon focus on the actual JVM itself, not on the code run on it. Google making their own JVM is what's brought them into the crosshairs.
- hga 16y ago
  Which could be rather bad if you need a JVM tuned in a non-standard way. Anyway you look at it, Oracle has enabled a lot of FUD to be thrown at Java, and if your observation is correct, andyone who's working on any sort of non-Oracle derived JVM (and there are a bunch) had just been handed a lot of legal uncertainty. Side note: I don't need hearing this shortly after learning about the RightHaven atrocity factory.
  - bad_user 16y ago
    > andyone who's working on any sort of non-Oracle derived JVM Except Dalvik is not derived from the JVM. Sure they use the language, but what, are you going to tell me that I can't make a compiler that translates JVM bytecode to something else? Should projects like http://ikvm.net http://ikvm.net be illegal? Oracle is destroying the biggest advantage Java has.
    - hga 16y ago
      Very good point! Dalvik very much isn't a JVM. While both are bytecode interpreters you need to translate Java bytecodes into Dalvik ones to use the former. I'll need to read more (just woke up) to see just what Oracle is objecting to. Bytecode based systems are an old old old concept due to the severe lack of memory available in the bad old days, e.g. I personally know that as of the mid-late '70s the Lisp Machine's compiler went to a bytecode that the microcode would then interpret. As I recall Smalltalk did this and I know it wasn't a new concept. Heck, what about UCSD's Pascal system? Don't know the history of JIT compilation, let alone various tricks that have recently been developed; Java is the second wildly successful bytecode system, I think, after UCSD's, which was done back when memory was a lot more precious. And Dalvik optimized for among other things low memory demand, e.g. it is register based and Java bytecode is stack based. Thanks for pointing this out.
albertzeyer 16y ago
From the listed patent infringements (see other comment by cscotta) and my non-expert understanding, I would say just the same.
cageface 16y ago
Good question. It's got to cast a bit of a shadow over anything based on the VM. This seems like a catastrophically stupid and short-sighted move on Oracle's part. The reason Java is as big as it is today is that it's been an open playing field for all comers. Start tossing the odd hand grenade into the party and the room is going to clear out fast. The timing could hardly be worse too - Scala and Clojure seem to be building some real momentum lately.
- wmf 16y ago
  I disagree. Java ME is already dead, so there's nothing left to kill. Server-side Java is all properly licensed, so I don't see a problem there.
  - cageface 16y ago
    Patent and licensing issues are so complex and the outcome of litigation so unpredictable that good faith and precedent are what count. This suit demonstrates that Oracle is perfectly willing to pursue offensive suits on Java IP and that's a very damaging precedent.
Niten 16y ago
Clojure will be fine, at least. I think I remember Rich saying it was explicitly designed as a multi-VM language in an interview somewhere. Anyway, he already has an official, apparently actively maintained port of Clojure to the .NET CLR: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr/ http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr/ Now porting your Clojure applications between VMs may or may not be a reasonable proposition depending on what kind of non-Clojure pure Java libraries you depend upon, but the fate of the Clojure language is thankfully not tied to the fate of the Java runtime. I think Scala has a .NET port too, but I don't know if it's active.
- gtani 16y ago
  You don't hear too much about Scala on CLR, but Microsoft did support it somehow: http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/scala-is-foremost-industrial-language.html http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/scala-is-foremost...

What implications, if any, does this have for the future of JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, etc.?

by bitsai 16y ago

What implications, if any, does this have for the future of JVM languages like Scala, Clojure, etc.?

bconway 16y ago

Seconded. If Oracle is going to turn Java into a minefield, it's going to have big repercussions in future uptake.

recoil 16y ago
I think this is much bigger than just Java. The patents in question relate to the whole field of VM implementation, not simply Java VM implementation. On the surface this really appears to have very little to do with Java the language. For a start, Dalvik is not a JVM implementation at all, in fact it's quite a different beast. See, e.g.: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_application_virtual_machines http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_application_virtu... which lists Dalvik as a register machine rather than a stack machine: definitely not a trivial difference. Google's toolchain converts from JVM bytecode to Dalvik bytecode, which is probably what Oracle are going after with #5,966,702 but the rest of the patents are much more general. If anything Oracle are turning VM implementation in general into a patent minefield, not Java alone.

michaelfairley 16y ago

It looks like the patents that Oracle is claiming are being infringed upon focus on the actual JVM itself, not on the code run on it. Google making their own JVM is what's brought them into the crosshairs.

hga 16y ago
Which could be rather bad if you need a JVM tuned in a non-standard way. Anyway you look at it, Oracle has enabled a lot of FUD to be thrown at Java, and if your observation is correct, andyone who's working on any sort of non-Oracle derived JVM (and there are a bunch) had just been handed a lot of legal uncertainty. Side note: I don't need hearing this shortly after learning about the RightHaven atrocity factory.
- bad_user 16y ago
  > andyone who's working on any sort of non-Oracle derived JVM Except Dalvik is not derived from the JVM. Sure they use the language, but what, are you going to tell me that I can't make a compiler that translates JVM bytecode to something else? Should projects like http://ikvm.net http://ikvm.net be illegal? Oracle is destroying the biggest advantage Java has.
  - hga 16y ago
    Very good point! Dalvik very much isn't a JVM. While both are bytecode interpreters you need to translate Java bytecodes into Dalvik ones to use the former. I'll need to read more (just woke up) to see just what Oracle is objecting to. Bytecode based systems are an old old old concept due to the severe lack of memory available in the bad old days, e.g. I personally know that as of the mid-late '70s the Lisp Machine's compiler went to a bytecode that the microcode would then interpret. As I recall Smalltalk did this and I know it wasn't a new concept. Heck, what about UCSD's Pascal system? Don't know the history of JIT compilation, let alone various tricks that have recently been developed; Java is the second wildly successful bytecode system, I think, after UCSD's, which was done back when memory was a lot more precious. And Dalvik optimized for among other things low memory demand, e.g. it is register based and Java bytecode is stack based. Thanks for pointing this out.

albertzeyer 16y ago

From the listed patent infringements (see other comment by cscotta) and my non-expert understanding, I would say just the same.

cageface 16y ago

Good question. It's got to cast a bit of a shadow over anything based on the VM. This seems like a catastrophically stupid and short-sighted move on Oracle's part. The reason Java is as big as it is today is that it's been an open playing field for all comers. Start tossing the odd hand grenade into the party and the room is going to clear out fast. The timing could hardly be worse too - Scala and Clojure seem to be building some real momentum lately.

wmf 16y ago
I disagree. Java ME is already dead, so there's nothing left to kill. Server-side Java is all properly licensed, so I don't see a problem there.
- cageface 16y ago
  Patent and licensing issues are so complex and the outcome of litigation so unpredictable that good faith and precedent are what count. This suit demonstrates that Oracle is perfectly willing to pursue offensive suits on Java IP and that's a very damaging precedent.

Niten 16y ago

Clojure will be fine, at least. I think I remember Rich saying it was explicitly designed as a multi-VM language in an interview somewhere. Anyway, he already has an official, apparently actively maintained port of Clojure to the .NET CLR: http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr/ http://github.com/richhickey/clojure-clr/ Now porting your Clojure applications between VMs may or may not be a reasonable proposition depending on what kind of non-Clojure pure Java libraries you depend upon, but the fate of the Clojure language is thankfully not tied to the fate of the Java runtime. I think Scala has a .NET port too, but I don't know if it's active.

gtani 16y ago
You don't hear too much about Scala on CLR, but Microsoft did support it somehow: http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/scala-is-foremost-industrial-language.html http://flyingfrogblog.blogspot.com/2010/08/scala-is-foremost...