3 ms·

That incident happened after a company event, isn't that considered private time? I mean, she would have had to agree to go with the co-worker, during their off

That incident happened after a company event, isn't that considered private time? I mean, she would have had to agree to go with the co-worker, during their off-hours, in the first place and he might have interpreted her willingness to go along as a signal of mutual interest (romantic, sexual) in each other? That isn't meant as an excuse for such creepy, if not straight up criminal, behavior. But as somebody with some social issues of his own, I can relate quite a bit with not being able to properly interpret social and body cues. To me, the vast majority of people are walking blackboxes where I have no clue how they would react to most actions of my own. Which boils down to me acting rather passively in most social situations out of fear I might break some unspoken rule, misinterpret the current mood in the room/between people.

brian-armstrong 9y ago
A good rule of thumb is, if you're not sure, don't stick someone's hand on your crotch.
- freeflight 9y ago
  Where did I suggest that's anything to go by? But I can easily relate to a situation where signals are misinterpreted, which goes both ways: Missing out on advances by others because you don't realize them as such or you interpret them as such and fear of having it misinterpreted and as such don't act on them. The last time I had "body contact" with a woman she literally had to rip my clothes off and throw me on her bed, even tho I wasn't comfortable with that situation at all and stated as much to her, that I'd rather not have intercourse on the first "date". She didn't care and I was overwhelmed by that situation, only way out there would have been to handle her roughly. But she assumed I was at her place exactly for that, while I was at her place for exactly the reason we talked about: Seeing how much stuff she had because I wanted her to help with moving out. Sorry for not sticking with the old stereotype of "if a woman invited you over it's to have sex". That wasn't pleasant at all, she supposedly didn't remember much of it due to being too drunk. I probably could push charges, if anybody would actually believe me, but to what end? I'm only writing this to put context to my previous statement: People are complicated, social is complicated, for some among us even more so than for others. In that regard, I find it really sad that we readily apply Hanlon's Razor to all kinds of problems but rarely, if ever, to social interactions.
kelukelugames 9y ago
The EEOC says the company is responsible for things that happen at company events and on the way to and from events. I'm not a lawyer but I hear lingering after the event qualifies.
- freeflight 9y ago
  > I'm not a lawyer but I hear lingering after the event qualifies. That sounds so undefined, I wonder where the cut-off point is? Considering that co-workers can also be friends in private, so private social gatherings following up on company events are not really that rare of a thing.
vforgione 9y ago
If a woman wants to touch you, she will. End of story.
- TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
  Are women the only ones supposed to attempt to initiate a relationship nowadays? That's a bit extreme IMO.
  - vforgione 9y ago
    No. It wasn’t meant to come off like that. I was responding to the context of the story. It doesn’t matter who it is. If someone wants to be intimate they will clearly signal it.
- tzahola 9y ago
  >If a man wants to touch you, he will. End of story. I can only imagine the amount of outrage if someone wrote this.
- lkerrekfjk 9y ago
  Wouldn't that be assault as well?
  - astura 9y ago
    Yes.
  - vforgione 9y ago
    That’s not even close to what I was getting at. If you are interested in someone there are a million non threatening, non aggressive ways to signal it. If it’s purely sexual the same applies. If the other person wants the same they will make it obvious. In the context of the story about the man forcibly putting the woman’s hand on his crotch, there didn’t seem to be any precedent (from the story that was published) that would have indicated that she would want to touch him like that. If there was some conversation that happened where mutual interest was expressed and the conversation turned sexual, then if she wanted to touch him she would. Grabbing another person and forcing their hand to your genitals is not okay. I don’t understand how that is ambiguous.
daeken 9y ago
There's a very good rule here: unless you have done action X on at least 3 occasions with a given person, ask them before you do it. "May I hug/kiss/grope/whatever you?" If you've already done this on several occasions in the past, sure, use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs. Otherwise, ask. Period. No exceptions.
- cloakandswagger 9y ago
  I've never heard of that rule, did you just make it up?
- freeflight 9y ago
  That isn't a very good standard to go by because many people don't instantly voice their concerns about behaviors making them uncomfortable, some even prefer to voice such concerns only to third parties when the "offender" is not around. That's why you can end up repeating mistakes over and over again and annoy/intimidating people you don't even realize you are annoying/intimidating, even tho that wasn't your intention at all. > use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs Making it sound so simple disregards the fact that this isn't natural to everybody and it's not really an easy skill to learn when it's not natural to you, especially not on your own. Sure you can ask about all the things that everybody else considers "normal", but do you really want to stick out even more as the "oddball" than you already feel for being insecure about such seemingly "normal" things?

brian-armstrong 9y ago

A good rule of thumb is, if you're not sure, don't stick someone's hand on your crotch.

freeflight 9y ago
Where did I suggest that's anything to go by? But I can easily relate to a situation where signals are misinterpreted, which goes both ways: Missing out on advances by others because you don't realize them as such or you interpret them as such and fear of having it misinterpreted and as such don't act on them. The last time I had "body contact" with a woman she literally had to rip my clothes off and throw me on her bed, even tho I wasn't comfortable with that situation at all and stated as much to her, that I'd rather not have intercourse on the first "date". She didn't care and I was overwhelmed by that situation, only way out there would have been to handle her roughly. But she assumed I was at her place exactly for that, while I was at her place for exactly the reason we talked about: Seeing how much stuff she had because I wanted her to help with moving out. Sorry for not sticking with the old stereotype of "if a woman invited you over it's to have sex". That wasn't pleasant at all, she supposedly didn't remember much of it due to being too drunk. I probably could push charges, if anybody would actually believe me, but to what end? I'm only writing this to put context to my previous statement: People are complicated, social is complicated, for some among us even more so than for others. In that regard, I find it really sad that we readily apply Hanlon's Razor to all kinds of problems but rarely, if ever, to social interactions.

kelukelugames 9y ago

The EEOC says the company is responsible for things that happen at company events and on the way to and from events. I'm not a lawyer but I hear lingering after the event qualifies.

freeflight 9y ago
> I'm not a lawyer but I hear lingering after the event qualifies. That sounds so undefined, I wonder where the cut-off point is? Considering that co-workers can also be friends in private, so private social gatherings following up on company events are not really that rare of a thing.

vforgione 9y ago

If a woman wants to touch you, she will. End of story.

TheAdamAndChe 9y ago
Are women the only ones supposed to attempt to initiate a relationship nowadays? That's a bit extreme IMO.
- vforgione 9y ago
  No. It wasn’t meant to come off like that. I was responding to the context of the story. It doesn’t matter who it is. If someone wants to be intimate they will clearly signal it.
tzahola 9y ago
>If a man wants to touch you, he will. End of story. I can only imagine the amount of outrage if someone wrote this.
lkerrekfjk 9y ago
Wouldn't that be assault as well?
- astura 9y ago
  Yes.
- vforgione 9y ago
  That’s not even close to what I was getting at. If you are interested in someone there are a million non threatening, non aggressive ways to signal it. If it’s purely sexual the same applies. If the other person wants the same they will make it obvious. In the context of the story about the man forcibly putting the woman’s hand on his crotch, there didn’t seem to be any precedent (from the story that was published) that would have indicated that she would want to touch him like that. If there was some conversation that happened where mutual interest was expressed and the conversation turned sexual, then if she wanted to touch him she would. Grabbing another person and forcing their hand to your genitals is not okay. I don’t understand how that is ambiguous.

daeken 9y ago

There's a very good rule here: unless you have done action X on at least 3 occasions with a given person, ask them before you do it. "May I hug/kiss/grope/whatever you?" If you've already done this on several occasions in the past, sure, use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs. Otherwise, ask. Period. No exceptions.

cloakandswagger 9y ago
I've never heard of that rule, did you just make it up?
freeflight 9y ago
That isn't a very good standard to go by because many people don't instantly voice their concerns about behaviors making them uncomfortable, some even prefer to voice such concerns only to third parties when the "offender" is not around. That's why you can end up repeating mistakes over and over again and annoy/intimidating people you don't even realize you are annoying/intimidating, even tho that wasn't your intention at all. > use your discretion and interpret body language or subtle signs Making it sound so simple disregards the fact that this isn't natural to everybody and it's not really an easy skill to learn when it's not natural to you, especially not on your own. Sure you can ask about all the things that everybody else considers "normal", but do you really want to stick out even more as the "oddball" than you already feel for being insecure about such seemingly "normal" things?