5 ms·

One of the problems I've always had with patio11's advice is that the skills he brought to a job was something that could easily be measured, e.g. he mainly did

by iends 9y ago

One of the problems I've always had with patio11's advice is that the skills he brought to a job was something that could easily be measured, e.g. he mainly did sales funnel optimization so it was easy to see the before and after of the direct impact on the bottom line. As somebody who is a skilled backend developer the value I provide is not as measurable. How can I justify charging a large weekly rate, when almost nobody can provide an objective number of the value I provide?

putnam 9y ago
Are you a consultant or freelancer currently? Have you tried doing this justification in the past and how has it gone? EDIT: length
- iends 9y ago
  I am a full time employee currently, but have done consulting on the side for $50-$100/hr several times. I've never tried to negotiate weekly rates because I've only been able to do ~10 hours of work a week on top of my full time job.
  - putnam 9y ago
    Would you want to do more consulting?
  - confiscate 9y ago
    those are 2 separate issues (# of hrs you can dedicate per week, vs, whether you are in position to negotiate for a weekly instead of hourly rate) if anything, knowing how much you can do (10 hrs of work) per week, makes it easier for you to propose how much value you can provide each week, no?
hashkb 9y ago
I used to be a "skilled backend programmer" but now I "help entrepreneurs start their businesses." See the difference?
- iends 9y ago
  Are entrepreneurs that are starting their business really a niche that pays well? Seems like it wouldn't be. Seems like you get either "build me the next facebook for $500" or a lot of small business with a total budget of $5000.
  - danenania 9y ago
    In general, you're right, but there's a sub-niche of entrepreneurs who are either independently wealthy or have easy access to capital that keep all the MVP-building agencies and consultants afloat.
    - rev_bird 9y ago
      I can't imagine how much work it would be to sift through all the other "ideas people" who need an app next week and then they'll pay you once the cash starts rolling in.
      - noahc 9y ago
        Just bill 50 to 100 percent up front.
- noahc 9y ago
  Is this typically 5k to 20k engagements over a period of 2 to six weeks?
mgkimsal 9y ago
> As somebody who is a skilled backend developer the value I provide is not as measurable Learn to do something which is more measurable, or figure out ways to measure some particular aspect of value you can bring. In back-end software, it will most likely be around performance or security. Doing a security audit then proposing remediation... if the company has already been hacked, they (should) understand the value rather quickly. If not... it would be a harder sell. Performance? Would be hard, I think, without being a brand and people seeking you out. Speeding up an ecommerce site can definitely have measurable impact on bottom line but... if a company is big enough where that would have meaningful impact, they probably already have a team of people to navigate through to convince them of your value/skill/ability.
- putnam 9y ago
  Do you think there are 1-5 person companies doing millions annually with an ecom site?
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    There are definitely small (<10 people) companies doing millions with ecommerce. My inclination is that most of them are doing some/all via Amazon these days. But even outside of Amazon yes, there are some people doing that. Headcount is less important than technical headcount - there may be 8 people in the company, but they just outsourced a woocommerce shop and market the heck out of it. Margins matter too, not just headcount. Someone could do $2m/year but make less than someone doing $800k/year with better margins. Doing perf/security reviews of a niche like that (woo, magento, etc) would probably still be a place to focus and make money, if you want to stay 'back end' (or at least technical). But even then, some of the measurable stuff will be needed - "we reduced the load times by 45% on the checkout page, and conversions went up 17%, adding $87k in profit last year".
    - putnam 9y ago
      Would it be easy to find these clients?
    - 9y ago
petermonsson 9y ago
Can you affect the number and size of AWS instances that a company needs? As Patrick said on twitter the other day. If you can optimize the use of AWS for a company that has 3k instances, you can make the company boatloads of money in reduced server cost.

by iends 9y ago

putnam 9y ago

Are you a consultant or freelancer currently? Have you tried doing this justification in the past and how has it gone? EDIT: length

iends 9y ago
I am a full time employee currently, but have done consulting on the side for $50-$100/hr several times. I've never tried to negotiate weekly rates because I've only been able to do ~10 hours of work a week on top of my full time job.
- putnam 9y ago
  Would you want to do more consulting?
- confiscate 9y ago
  those are 2 separate issues (# of hrs you can dedicate per week, vs, whether you are in position to negotiate for a weekly instead of hourly rate) if anything, knowing how much you can do (10 hrs of work) per week, makes it easier for you to propose how much value you can provide each week, no?

hashkb 9y ago

I used to be a "skilled backend programmer" but now I "help entrepreneurs start their businesses." See the difference?

iends 9y ago
Are entrepreneurs that are starting their business really a niche that pays well? Seems like it wouldn't be. Seems like you get either "build me the next facebook for $500" or a lot of small business with a total budget of $5000.
- danenania 9y ago
  In general, you're right, but there's a sub-niche of entrepreneurs who are either independently wealthy or have easy access to capital that keep all the MVP-building agencies and consultants afloat.
  - rev_bird 9y ago
    I can't imagine how much work it would be to sift through all the other "ideas people" who need an app next week and then they'll pay you once the cash starts rolling in.
    - noahc 9y ago
      Just bill 50 to 100 percent up front.
noahc 9y ago
Is this typically 5k to 20k engagements over a period of 2 to six weeks?

mgkimsal 9y ago

> As somebody who is a skilled backend developer the value I provide is not as measurable Learn to do something which is more measurable, or figure out ways to measure some particular aspect of value you can bring. In back-end software, it will most likely be around performance or security. Doing a security audit then proposing remediation... if the company has already been hacked, they (should) understand the value rather quickly. If not... it would be a harder sell. Performance? Would be hard, I think, without being a brand and people seeking you out. Speeding up an ecommerce site can definitely have measurable impact on bottom line but... if a company is big enough where that would have meaningful impact, they probably already have a team of people to navigate through to convince them of your value/skill/ability.

putnam 9y ago
Do you think there are 1-5 person companies doing millions annually with an ecom site?
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  There are definitely small (<10 people) companies doing millions with ecommerce. My inclination is that most of them are doing some/all via Amazon these days. But even outside of Amazon yes, there are some people doing that. Headcount is less important than technical headcount - there may be 8 people in the company, but they just outsourced a woocommerce shop and market the heck out of it. Margins matter too, not just headcount. Someone could do $2m/year but make less than someone doing $800k/year with better margins. Doing perf/security reviews of a niche like that (woo, magento, etc) would probably still be a place to focus and make money, if you want to stay 'back end' (or at least technical). But even then, some of the measurable stuff will be needed - "we reduced the load times by 45% on the checkout page, and conversions went up 17%, adding $87k in profit last year".
  - putnam 9y ago
    Would it be easy to find these clients?
  - 9y ago

petermonsson 9y ago

Can you affect the number and size of AWS instances that a company needs? As Patrick said on twitter the other day. If you can optimize the use of AWS for a company that has 3k instances, you can make the company boatloads of money in reduced server cost.