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Spot on. I've been in some situations where I've been 'hired', but the people I have to work with didn't know, or didn't want me there, or were generally antag

Spot on. I've been in some situations where I've been 'hired', but the people I have to work with didn't know, or didn't want me there, or were generally antagonistic (usually they weren't consulted at all). Client may end up paying the bill, but they're getting so little value out of what I've done it's... painful. But it's often painful just to be working at some of those companies too (whether as insider or outsider).

rdtsc 9y ago
How does it usually work out in the end? Does that hurt you in the sense that they'll blame you anyway, or help because you got more hours in. Not a consultant but would list or report what time was spent on and they'd see line items like "waited on having accounts set up by IT for 2 days"
- mgkimsal 9y ago
  I don't always keep detailed time logs, but would take notes on situations like that, where there were significant delays caused by something outside my control. Not showing up on an invoice, but using those notes, I'd have a meeting with someone higher up (if there was no traction from trying to work with the people on the ground). In most cases, those situations haven't worked out well, but it seems nothing does. There's sometimes some cult of personality - "do it Dave's way", etc. To which the logical question "if Dave's way is so good, why are things broken and people are bringing in outside help to fix things?" If you can't ask that sort of question and get a good feel up front, it may be worth skipping the project (unless they pay is really good - I've usually put up with more crap than I suggest other people do because I wanted/needed the money)
  - pjmlp 9y ago
    I've learned to always keep such logs, in some gigs even down to minutes. They can come really handy if the fire brigade comes in when invoices start getting discussed.
    - mgkimsal 9y ago
      Some projects I do want some product I don't. If I think at the very beginning that I have to do that, I'm already thinking I'm in a potentially bad/adversarial project.
      - ethbro 9y ago
        Always good to keep notes on things like this (noted at the time each issue appears). Always better that they never have to be formally given to the customer.
- user5994461 9y ago
  In the end you get paid as usual. The company didn't get much value but they probably don't get much value out of their employees or anything they do. Doesn't matter, you are not here to change the world, they don't want you to change their world.

rdtsc 9y ago

How does it usually work out in the end? Does that hurt you in the sense that they'll blame you anyway, or help because you got more hours in. Not a consultant but would list or report what time was spent on and they'd see line items like "waited on having accounts set up by IT for 2 days"

mgkimsal 9y ago
I don't always keep detailed time logs, but would take notes on situations like that, where there were significant delays caused by something outside my control. Not showing up on an invoice, but using those notes, I'd have a meeting with someone higher up (if there was no traction from trying to work with the people on the ground). In most cases, those situations haven't worked out well, but it seems nothing does. There's sometimes some cult of personality - "do it Dave's way", etc. To which the logical question "if Dave's way is so good, why are things broken and people are bringing in outside help to fix things?" If you can't ask that sort of question and get a good feel up front, it may be worth skipping the project (unless they pay is really good - I've usually put up with more crap than I suggest other people do because I wanted/needed the money)
- pjmlp 9y ago
  I've learned to always keep such logs, in some gigs even down to minutes. They can come really handy if the fire brigade comes in when invoices start getting discussed.
  - mgkimsal 9y ago
    Some projects I do want some product I don't. If I think at the very beginning that I have to do that, I'm already thinking I'm in a potentially bad/adversarial project.
    - ethbro 9y ago
      Always good to keep notes on things like this (noted at the time each issue appears). Always better that they never have to be formally given to the customer.
user5994461 9y ago
In the end you get paid as usual. The company didn't get much value but they probably don't get much value out of their employees or anything they do. Doesn't matter, you are not here to change the world, they don't want you to change their world.