3 ms·

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that wh

I don't think whataboutism, or exhortations to appreciate the complexity of global politics carry more value than the basic, straightforward observation that what happened at Tiananmen was horrible and unforgiveable, and should forever be held against China. People don't have the energy to protest everything, because we're poor, exhausted, distracted, and yes, often confused and hypocritical. It doesn't mean the observations we make about atrocities are insincere or untrue or that they are unworthy of attention. And independently of our sincerity or consistency, I think the observation is simply true on its merits anyway, and it's bewildering (to me at least) why anything other than that should matter.

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
Fricken 9y ago
None of the people involved in the decision to use violence against the Tiananmen square protesters are still in power. Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? And where are we going to find the energy to hold this grudge along with all the other unforgivable acts throughout history given that we're already so poor, exhausted, distracted and confused?
- glenstein 9y ago
  >Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? For starters, whoever decides to delete references to Tiananmen from the Chinese internet, and the surrounding bureaucratic system that permits (or probably demands) it to happen. Whoever orders the media to omit reference to it every anniversary. Whoever continues to order that parents and/or spouses of the victims are placed under house arrest or removed from their homes on the anniversary. But even replying that way feels kind of absurd, because it individualizes actions that are best understood as expressions the authoritarian regime itself, and it dismisses as a mere "grudge" the kind of thing anyone should remember in the name of maintaining a historical conscience. We shouldn't forgive because it's not the type of thing that somehow becomes more forgivable with the passage of time. And most importantly of all, we shouldn't forgive because China is largely unrepentant and in every significant way they are still the same regime as the one that carried out the events in the summer of 1989. edit: And as for who should hold a "grudge," I would say those of us with the energy to participate in these conversations for the purpose of minimizing the historical legacy of Tiananmen have plenty of energy to spare. Both for remembering what it was, and for remembering that the forces that allowed it to happen are still with us in the form of a regime that continues to jail and torture human rights lawyers.
  - Fricken 9y ago
    We should forgive. It's not an easy thing to do. The notion of forgiving was a revolutionary idea 2000 years ago, and in spite of lying at the bedrock of western morality, it's still a revolutionary idea today. The regime in China also brought 650 million people out of extreme poverty in span of a generation. Somewhat unprecedented in world history, and definitely not something that gets dredged up time and time again to reinforce a distorted narrative. Rip the bandaid off that one and there's no wound underneath to pick at :(
    - glenstein 9y ago
      When some effort is made to stop erasing history and start learning lessons from it, we can talk about forgiveness. Until then "forgiveness" is an aloof and silly gesture that serves only to whitewash history and trivialize the concept of forgiveness. Edit (since I can't reply any further): @Fricken: you're right. I feel perfectly comfortable making "overtures" that we not whitewash the massacre of 10,000 civilians. If that's to be redeemed it's going to take a lot more than vague exhortations about how the world is complicated.
      - Fricken 9y ago
        History is broad and complex and multifaceted. People who dedicate their lives to the study of history still feel like they don't have a clear picture. Yet here you are, acting like your shit don't drink, examining history through a tiny little pinhole, while making overtures about how it's wrong to whitewash it.
        cgmg 9y ago
        Nothing glenstein said was incorrect. Why are you reacting in such a hostile manner? You seem to have an axe to grind.
  - deleted 9y ago
    [deleted]
yesenadam 9y ago
OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US for its countless slaughtered 10,000s. Well, I guess it horrifies Americans because they empathetically imagine the US government not killing brown people in other countries by the million, but its own people, and that is scary.
- keiferski 9y ago
  I don’t disagree with you, but I think the fundamental difference here is that American invasions are a) acknowledged b) considered fairly negatively by virtually everyone, even by those who initially supported them. It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.” Tiannamen Square, conversely, was covered up, erased from history and is essentially unknown or uncared about by the majority of the Chinese population.
  - glenstein 9y ago
    Right. And the reason we keep historical events like these in mind is so that we learn lessons from them, understand clearly that they are wrong, so that we don't reproduce the political and intellectual climates that allowed them to happen.
  - Brakenshire 9y ago
    > It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.” It is publicly discussed, but it is also drowned in a flood of other information.
- erikpukinskis 9y ago
  > should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Yes! Of course. Do you think those of us who think Tiananmen Square was an atrocity that should not have been forgotten are waving away slavery or the current American prison system as forgiveable? We’re not. America’s sins are many and we are squaring up to those too. I have a hard time believing all of you posting this are actual HN readers and not paid political operatives. I don’t know how anyone could read this board and think none of us are criticizing the U.S. The crimes of all nations will be laid bare to history. No one will be spared. There guilty will pay and then history will move on. Not before.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

Fricken 9y ago

None of the people involved in the decision to use violence against the Tiananmen square protesters are still in power. Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? And where are we going to find the energy to hold this grudge along with all the other unforgivable acts throughout history given that we're already so poor, exhausted, distracted and confused?

glenstein 9y ago
>Who is it exactly that we should never forgive forever? For starters, whoever decides to delete references to Tiananmen from the Chinese internet, and the surrounding bureaucratic system that permits (or probably demands) it to happen. Whoever orders the media to omit reference to it every anniversary. Whoever continues to order that parents and/or spouses of the victims are placed under house arrest or removed from their homes on the anniversary. But even replying that way feels kind of absurd, because it individualizes actions that are best understood as expressions the authoritarian regime itself, and it dismisses as a mere "grudge" the kind of thing anyone should remember in the name of maintaining a historical conscience. We shouldn't forgive because it's not the type of thing that somehow becomes more forgivable with the passage of time. And most importantly of all, we shouldn't forgive because China is largely unrepentant and in every significant way they are still the same regime as the one that carried out the events in the summer of 1989. edit: And as for who should hold a "grudge," I would say those of us with the energy to participate in these conversations for the purpose of minimizing the historical legacy of Tiananmen have plenty of energy to spare. Both for remembering what it was, and for remembering that the forces that allowed it to happen are still with us in the form of a regime that continues to jail and torture human rights lawyers.
- Fricken 9y ago
  We should forgive. It's not an easy thing to do. The notion of forgiving was a revolutionary idea 2000 years ago, and in spite of lying at the bedrock of western morality, it's still a revolutionary idea today. The regime in China also brought 650 million people out of extreme poverty in span of a generation. Somewhat unprecedented in world history, and definitely not something that gets dredged up time and time again to reinforce a distorted narrative. Rip the bandaid off that one and there's no wound underneath to pick at :(
  - glenstein 9y ago
    When some effort is made to stop erasing history and start learning lessons from it, we can talk about forgiveness. Until then "forgiveness" is an aloof and silly gesture that serves only to whitewash history and trivialize the concept of forgiveness. Edit (since I can't reply any further): @Fricken: you're right. I feel perfectly comfortable making "overtures" that we not whitewash the massacre of 10,000 civilians. If that's to be redeemed it's going to take a lot more than vague exhortations about how the world is complicated.
    - Fricken 9y ago
      History is broad and complex and multifaceted. People who dedicate their lives to the study of history still feel like they don't have a clear picture. Yet here you are, acting like your shit don't drink, examining history through a tiny little pinhole, while making overtures about how it's wrong to whitewash it.
      - cgmg 9y ago
        Nothing glenstein said was incorrect. Why are you reacting in such a hostile manner? You seem to have an axe to grind.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]

yesenadam 9y ago

OK, so to take just one example, say 50 or so Tiananmens died in the latest US appalling invasion/massacre of Iraq. So that was 50x as horrible and unforgiveable, and should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Something comparable happened every few years of the last century. I get the feeling most people reading this will hold more against me for saying this, than against the US for its countless slaughtered 10,000s. Well, I guess it horrifies Americans because they empathetically imagine the US government not killing brown people in other countries by the million, but its own people, and that is scary.

keiferski 9y ago
I don’t disagree with you, but I think the fundamental difference here is that American invasions are a) acknowledged b) considered fairly negatively by virtually everyone, even by those who initially supported them. It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.” Tiannamen Square, conversely, was covered up, erased from history and is essentially unknown or uncared about by the majority of the Chinese population.
- glenstein 9y ago
  Right. And the reason we keep historical events like these in mind is so that we learn lessons from them, understand clearly that they are wrong, so that we don't reproduce the political and intellectual climates that allowed them to happen.
- Brakenshire 9y ago
  > It is a publically discussed issue with multiple acceptable opinions which range from “expensive quagmire” to “massive human rights violation.” It is publicly discussed, but it is also drowned in a flood of other information.
erikpukinskis 9y ago
> should 'forever be held against the USA' in the same essentially horrified way? Yes! Of course. Do you think those of us who think Tiananmen Square was an atrocity that should not have been forgotten are waving away slavery or the current American prison system as forgiveable? We’re not. America’s sins are many and we are squaring up to those too. I have a hard time believing all of you posting this are actual HN readers and not paid political operatives. I don’t know how anyone could read this board and think none of us are criticizing the U.S. The crimes of all nations will be laid bare to history. No one will be spared. There guilty will pay and then history will move on. Not before.