5 ms·

Hasn't China and Russia/Eastern Europe been winning competitions like these, in all fields (maths, physics, computer science) for ages? How come the winners sto

by marvin 19y ago

Hasn't China and Russia/Eastern Europe been winning competitions like these, in all fields (maths, physics, computer science) for ages? How come the winners stop performing when they grow up? Or is it just that it takes 30 years to evolve from "excellent at solving small tasks" to "excellent at solving real tasks"? It seems to me like these countries (and China in particular) have a culture of overworking and overperforming, while most of the time managing to avoid making a significant impact on society as a whole. A young, ambitious Chinese student studies as hard as most start-up employees, while aiming for much smaller gains.

osipov 19y ago
>to avoid making a significant impact on society as a whole I would hardly call launching the first satellite into space, followed by the first man in space, followed by the first unmanned Moon landing, followed by the first space station a result without a significant impact on society. That's with respect to Russia. Further, if you look at the list of Nobel prize winners, China and Russia are right up there, making huge, positive impact on the society.
- neilc 19y ago
  With respect to Nobel laureates, the US has ~304, Russia has 22, and China has 5. In what sense are China and Russia "right up there", particularly on a per-capita basis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country
  - osipov 19y ago
    interesting...I did a search too and came up with a different source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldmapnobellaureatesbycountry.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldmapnobellaureatesbyc... Trouble is, I can't finding the right page on the official Nobel site that would confirm/deny the information on wikipedia.
    - copenja 19y ago
      I think both are correct. Your link indicates that USA has 50+ and Russia has between 15-24.
osipov 19y ago
also, can you define what do you mean by "excellent at solving real tasks"
ardit33 19y ago
you forgot allmp3.com and other good and successful non-legal enterprises. Who said they stopped performing?
- osipov 19y ago
  >and successful non-legal enterprises ...and without Russian mafia, where would the inspiration come from for Grand Theft Auto IV? :)
tfinniga 19y ago
It looks to me like the best way for a talented cs guy in the US to get ahead is to found startups until he achieves commercial success. Whereas the quickest way to get ahead in poor countries is to be noticed, get out of your country, and found a startup/join a company in a richer country. I know MS scouts these competitions for new hires. I'd imagine that for many this is their way out, so they're extremely motivated to win. The smart people go where they can best leverage their talents.
- kradic 19y ago
  The quickest way to get ahead in a lot of poor countries is to associate yourself with the crooks who are ruling it, and get a slice of the money they extract from it.
  - tfinniga 19y ago
    Interesting that storm and kraken are also both based in Russia.
eugenejen 19y ago
It is not overworking or overperforming in my 0.02. An ambitious American/Western European/Japanese student would rather to spend their energy to deal with real world problems because in reality, he/she may be able to get much large rewards, in comparison to ACM's award and honor. While an ambitious Eastern European/Chinese student, the reward from local economy is worthy far less than making a big name in ACM. The same monetary reward from ACM has much higher value in those countries. Besides, after winning the award. It becomes a good add-on on resumes for applications to graduate schools in U.S. or a job at Google/Microsoft/IBM. I am always amazed that people forget how cheap it is when you are living outside U.S and Western Europe. And the same dollar can buy much more there. When I think about my uncle in Taiwan who have been spending 20 years to build a company that acquires 20% market share of silicone in East Asia, and its market capital is only $200 million. Any ambitious American/European hacker can make 3 to 10 millions if he/she works on the right stuffs in 5 years. Then you will know how unworthy it is to spend time on ACM competition in US but in China and Russia.
- osipov 19y ago
  That's a compelling narrative and I think there is some truth to that. However, I think there is a more simple explanation to the dominance of Russian schools. Check out this graph on percentage of population with at least a college degree: http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/files/2008/03/kierkegaard.jpg http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/files/2008/03/kierkegaard.jpg (warning: squinting may be required :) More educated people means more candidates to participate in ACM contents means higher chances of getting to the top spots.
  - eugenejen 19y ago
    I agree with what you said. And I also know from my school mates before in NYU that mathematical inclined Russians like to play all those interesting math quiz. Also in old Soviet times, engineers and scientists are treated better for their contributions to build socialist heaven :-) But I know the tradition in family maybe more important to inspire offspring. Thinking about Robert Morris father was the author of crypt function in Unix, I guess he may learn from his father when he was a still kid to play those games :-)
DmitriLebedev 19y ago
1) Many of them are training for contests, not for real-life tasks 2) They could make startups, but there is a huge bureaucracy. 3) Many have bad habbits (in wide sense) and passive approach to life and pessimism which are trained in early age. This goes back to soviet times when these life perceptions rooted themselves.

by marvin 19y ago

osipov 19y ago

>to avoid making a significant impact on society as a whole I would hardly call launching the first satellite into space, followed by the first man in space, followed by the first unmanned Moon landing, followed by the first space station a result without a significant impact on society. That's with respect to Russia. Further, if you look at the list of Nobel prize winners, China and Russia are right up there, making huge, positive impact on the society.

neilc 19y ago
With respect to Nobel laureates, the US has ~304, Russia has 22, and China has 5. In what sense are China and Russia "right up there", particularly on a per-capita basis? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_laureates_by_country
- osipov 19y ago
  interesting...I did a search too and came up with a different source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldmapnobellaureatesbycountry.PNG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Worldmapnobellaureatesbyc... Trouble is, I can't finding the right page on the official Nobel site that would confirm/deny the information on wikipedia.
  - copenja 19y ago
    I think both are correct. Your link indicates that USA has 50+ and Russia has between 15-24.

osipov 19y ago

also, can you define what do you mean by "excellent at solving real tasks"

ardit33 19y ago

you forgot allmp3.com and other good and successful non-legal enterprises. Who said they stopped performing?

osipov 19y ago
>and successful non-legal enterprises ...and without Russian mafia, where would the inspiration come from for Grand Theft Auto IV? :)

tfinniga 19y ago

It looks to me like the best way for a talented cs guy in the US to get ahead is to found startups until he achieves commercial success. Whereas the quickest way to get ahead in poor countries is to be noticed, get out of your country, and found a startup/join a company in a richer country. I know MS scouts these competitions for new hires. I'd imagine that for many this is their way out, so they're extremely motivated to win. The smart people go where they can best leverage their talents.

kradic 19y ago
The quickest way to get ahead in a lot of poor countries is to associate yourself with the crooks who are ruling it, and get a slice of the money they extract from it.
- tfinniga 19y ago
  Interesting that storm and kraken are also both based in Russia.

eugenejen 19y ago

It is not overworking or overperforming in my 0.02. An ambitious American/Western European/Japanese student would rather to spend their energy to deal with real world problems because in reality, he/she may be able to get much large rewards, in comparison to ACM's award and honor. While an ambitious Eastern European/Chinese student, the reward from local economy is worthy far less than making a big name in ACM. The same monetary reward from ACM has much higher value in those countries. Besides, after winning the award. It becomes a good add-on on resumes for applications to graduate schools in U.S. or a job at Google/Microsoft/IBM. I am always amazed that people forget how cheap it is when you are living outside U.S and Western Europe. And the same dollar can buy much more there. When I think about my uncle in Taiwan who have been spending 20 years to build a company that acquires 20% market share of silicone in East Asia, and its market capital is only $200 million. Any ambitious American/European hacker can make 3 to 10 millions if he/she works on the right stuffs in 5 years. Then you will know how unworthy it is to spend time on ACM competition in US but in China and Russia.

osipov 19y ago
That's a compelling narrative and I think there is some truth to that. However, I think there is a more simple explanation to the dominance of Russian schools. Check out this graph on percentage of population with at least a college degree: http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/files/2008/03/kierkegaard.jpg http://blogs.ft.com/crookblog/files/2008/03/kierkegaard.jpg (warning: squinting may be required :) More educated people means more candidates to participate in ACM contents means higher chances of getting to the top spots.
- eugenejen 19y ago
  I agree with what you said. And I also know from my school mates before in NYU that mathematical inclined Russians like to play all those interesting math quiz. Also in old Soviet times, engineers and scientists are treated better for their contributions to build socialist heaven :-) But I know the tradition in family maybe more important to inspire offspring. Thinking about Robert Morris father was the author of crypt function in Unix, I guess he may learn from his father when he was a still kid to play those games :-)

DmitriLebedev 19y ago

1) Many of them are training for contests, not for real-life tasks 2) They could make startups, but there is a huge bureaucracy. 3) Many have bad habbits (in wide sense) and passive approach to life and pessimism which are trained in early age. This goes back to soviet times when these life perceptions rooted themselves.