5 ms·

> I found NYC's subway a pleasant improvement. Yet I keep seeing articles about how it needs to be fixed. Decades of underinvestment means that it's not as goo

> I found NYC's subway a pleasant improvement. Yet I keep seeing articles about how it needs to be fixed. Decades of underinvestment means that it's not as good today as it was ten years ago, or as good ten years ago as it was a few decades before that. That said, even with all its problems, the NY metro area still has far better and more extensive public transportation than any other metro area in the country. Over a third of all subway stations in the country are located within New York City's city limits, and that's not even counting the three separate commuter train options, Amtrak, bus service, or Staten Island railway.

Joeri 9y ago
Yet I have heard horror stories of how it was so run down in the 70's and 80's that people were afraid to even take it at all. Isn't this a case of people glorifying the past? Are there objective metrics that demonstrate service quality has degraded (reduced train frequency, reduced amount of seats, etc...)?
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Are there objective metrics that demonstrate service quality has degraded (reduced train frequency, reduced amount of seats, etc...) Yes, there are, and the NYTimes has reported that data in previous articles from this same series.
  - mrjaeger 9y ago
    Said article https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-delays-overcrowding.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...
- keevie 9y ago
  It was really terrible in the 70s when the city went bankrupt. Then it got better, and now it's getting worse again.
  - Animats 9y ago
    The state took over the subway system when the city went broke. The MTA is a state agency.
- jsjohnst 9y ago
  I didn’t live in NYC during that era, but from my understanding it was a personal safety issue (gangs), not a mechanical safety issue. I can emphatically state that five years ago, there was much less over crowding, more frequent trains, and less delays.
beamatronic 9y ago
Because 100+ years ago someone saw the right path forward and they forced this into existence with political power. How can this be done today? Elon Musk comes to mind. Humanity seemingly has to be forced forward by a visionary backed by power.
- chimeracoder 9y ago
  > Because 100+ years ago someone saw the right path forward and they forced this into existence with political power. How can this be done today? Elon Musk comes to mind. Humanity seemingly has to be forced forward by a visionary backed by power. New York's current problem is that it already has too many elected officials with power that is completely unchecked and uncheckable by voters[0]. I'm not convinced that the solution to that problem is to have another person whose power is completely unchecked and uncheckable by voters. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15988458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15988458
lloyd-christmas 9y ago
Living in NYC, I haven't driven a car in 3 years and haven't even renewed my driver license for 2. I still manage to go hiking during summer weekends and skiing during the winter. Accessibility really isn't the issue. I think it's optics more than anything. NYC residents pay a ton in taxes and get little back. Our state taxes get moved upstate and our federal taxes go to poor states. I really think it's just trying to put pressure on our representatives to be a bit more "selfish" as to what happens with our taxes.
- beezle 9y ago
  Not to be flip, but those who live in the nyc (ny) burbs subsidize your mass transit, as do businesses in the burbs. Though dated, a 2011 Rockefeller Institute study claimed nyc paid out 5% more than it got back to the rest of the state while the burbs paid out 10% more. Per capita, they claimed nyc paid out $34 more while the burbs paid out $311 more). Income based financing schemes almost always fail in nonhomogeneous environments to be 'fair.'
  - lloyd-christmas 9y ago
    > Not to be flip I grew up in Scarsdale, your comments definitely aren't foreign to me. > those who live in the nyc (ny) burbs subsidize your mass transit The problem I see with this is that I struggle to consider it "your" mass transit. Both the MTA and Metro North are owned by the state. One of them has 300k daily riders, the other has 5.5m daily riders. 150k of those MN riders end up in the city everyday, so both groups are using state owned products, one group is potentially using BOTH (I always did when I commuted from Westchester to the financial district). The 4 commuter lines combined (NJTransit, PATH, LIRR, Metro North) have 1/3 the total daily ridership of the subway, but get almost double the amount of subsidies from state coffers. Growing up, I can count the number of parents who didn't commute to the city on both hands. Being wealthy enough to live in the suburbs doesn't mean your money is generated there. The median income in Scarsdale is $250k. I doubt that Scarsdale Flowers is the one lifting that average, so the people being taxed for it are the ones who actually use it anyway. I realize this is only one of the suburbs, but it's the one I'm personally familiar with. > Income based financing schemes almost always fail in nonhomogeneous environments to be 'fair.' I'm definitely not arguing for it. In fact, I usually argue against it. I'm just pointing out why I think the argument is being made, given that the subway isn't in as bad shape as the news makes it sound.

Joeri 9y ago

Yet I have heard horror stories of how it was so run down in the 70's and 80's that people were afraid to even take it at all. Isn't this a case of people glorifying the past? Are there objective metrics that demonstrate service quality has degraded (reduced train frequency, reduced amount of seats, etc...)?

chimeracoder 9y ago
> Are there objective metrics that demonstrate service quality has degraded (reduced train frequency, reduced amount of seats, etc...) Yes, there are, and the NYTimes has reported that data in previous articles from this same series.
- mrjaeger 9y ago
  Said article https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subway-delays-overcrowding.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2017/06/28/nyregion/subw...
keevie 9y ago
It was really terrible in the 70s when the city went bankrupt. Then it got better, and now it's getting worse again.
- Animats 9y ago
  The state took over the subway system when the city went broke. The MTA is a state agency.
jsjohnst 9y ago
I didn’t live in NYC during that era, but from my understanding it was a personal safety issue (gangs), not a mechanical safety issue. I can emphatically state that five years ago, there was much less over crowding, more frequent trains, and less delays.

beamatronic 9y ago

Because 100+ years ago someone saw the right path forward and they forced this into existence with political power. How can this be done today? Elon Musk comes to mind. Humanity seemingly has to be forced forward by a visionary backed by power.

chimeracoder 9y ago
> Because 100+ years ago someone saw the right path forward and they forced this into existence with political power. How can this be done today? Elon Musk comes to mind. Humanity seemingly has to be forced forward by a visionary backed by power. New York's current problem is that it already has too many elected officials with power that is completely unchecked and uncheckable by voters[0]. I'm not convinced that the solution to that problem is to have another person whose power is completely unchecked and uncheckable by voters. [0] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15988458 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=15988458

lloyd-christmas 9y ago

Living in NYC, I haven't driven a car in 3 years and haven't even renewed my driver license for 2. I still manage to go hiking during summer weekends and skiing during the winter. Accessibility really isn't the issue. I think it's optics more than anything. NYC residents pay a ton in taxes and get little back. Our state taxes get moved upstate and our federal taxes go to poor states. I really think it's just trying to put pressure on our representatives to be a bit more "selfish" as to what happens with our taxes.

beezle 9y ago
Not to be flip, but those who live in the nyc (ny) burbs subsidize your mass transit, as do businesses in the burbs. Though dated, a 2011 Rockefeller Institute study claimed nyc paid out 5% more than it got back to the rest of the state while the burbs paid out 10% more. Per capita, they claimed nyc paid out $34 more while the burbs paid out $311 more). Income based financing schemes almost always fail in nonhomogeneous environments to be 'fair.'
- lloyd-christmas 9y ago
  > Not to be flip I grew up in Scarsdale, your comments definitely aren't foreign to me. > those who live in the nyc (ny) burbs subsidize your mass transit The problem I see with this is that I struggle to consider it "your" mass transit. Both the MTA and Metro North are owned by the state. One of them has 300k daily riders, the other has 5.5m daily riders. 150k of those MN riders end up in the city everyday, so both groups are using state owned products, one group is potentially using BOTH (I always did when I commuted from Westchester to the financial district). The 4 commuter lines combined (NJTransit, PATH, LIRR, Metro North) have 1/3 the total daily ridership of the subway, but get almost double the amount of subsidies from state coffers. Growing up, I can count the number of parents who didn't commute to the city on both hands. Being wealthy enough to live in the suburbs doesn't mean your money is generated there. The median income in Scarsdale is $250k. I doubt that Scarsdale Flowers is the one lifting that average, so the people being taxed for it are the ones who actually use it anyway. I realize this is only one of the suburbs, but it's the one I'm personally familiar with. > Income based financing schemes almost always fail in nonhomogeneous environments to be 'fair.' I'm definitely not arguing for it. In fact, I usually argue against it. I'm just pointing out why I think the argument is being made, given that the subway isn't in as bad shape as the news makes it sound.