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>>...designed for normal users rather than by programmers for programmers This is the crux of the issue. The Linux ecosystem philosophy is rooted in choice. No

>>...designed for normal users rather than by programmers for programmers This is the crux of the issue. The Linux ecosystem philosophy is rooted in choice. Normal users don't want and/or need that much choice. Average Joe doesn't care what an operating system stands for, or how involved the developer community is, or how customization a system is. They need a spreadsheet/internet browser/email machine that can run some misc. business software, but most importantly they need something that just works. For all of the benefits of using Linux, the one thing it has never nailed down is intuitiveness. Say what you want about the (many) flaws of Windows, but you can't deny that one of the easiest out-of-the-box-this-thing-just-works experiences. It's also the same experience every single time you use a Windows machine. Try explaining the difference between Arch, Ubunutu, and Debian to a normal consumer and their eyes glaze over before you even begin.

AlexeyBrin 9y ago
> It's also the same experience every single time you use a Windows machine. Recently I helped a small company migrate their PCs from Windows 7 to Windows 10. Trust me, it is not the same experience at all for the end users. They (the users) will get used to the new interface and way of interacting with the OS not because it is more intuitive but because they will use it and gain experience with it.
- Spivak 9y ago
  I think the mistake is assuming that software can be intuitive. I think the correct model is that it's more like language. You memorize a few fundamental concepts and then you amass a catalog of rote steps for accomplishing your goals. Then there will be a moment where it all clicks and you realize you're fluent enough for your purposes and can understand the unfamiliar in the context of what you already know. Going from Windows 7 -> 10 is like going from English to Scottish. The grammar is mostly the same but a lot of the words and phrases are different.
- cm2187 9y ago
  I will never get used to have ads being displayed in the OS or to have random junk apps appearing in my start menu every couple of months. Microsoft sabotaged their main platform. It would have a major opportunity for other OS.
  - navjack27 9y ago
    That actually doesn't happen. You make it sound like there are straight up random ads. You install Windows 10 and there are shortcuts to popular Windows store apps that you can right click and remove. Not any different than installing, it was either Fedora or Debian, I think Fedora, and getting 'ads' for apps.
    - bwat48 9y ago
      It's still pretty annoying though. And even if you disable those ads in the settings, it seems like the preference randomly gets switched back on every other time you update windows It's been a few releases since I used fedora, but I don't recall ever seeing any kind of ads in the apps menu... and the vast majority of linux distros don't have any of that kind of garbage
    - kasabali 9y ago
      Yeah not straight up random ads, just promotions for random apps, auto installing some random games, random promotions in notification area and then OneDrive and Office 365 ads in File Explorer. Totally and honestly like in Debian and Fedora I swear. - https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/17/14956540/microsoft-windows-10-ads-taskbar-file-explorer https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/17/14956540/microsoft-window...
Someone123456 9y ago
> Normal users don't want and/or need that much choice. No need to take it. That's why ubuntu is a popular choice. > Say what you want about the (many) flaws of Windows, but you can't deny that one of the easiest out-of-the-box-this-thing-just-works experiences. Except when it doesn't install the right drivers(compared to distros like manjaro) and when you get a crappy browser by default or when the menu just crashes or fails to find what is certainly there. Or when you need to suspend your work because it's Update Time Like it or Not™. It's definitely not the best out-of-the-box experience, but the one which is the most advertized with the most misc software. > Try explaining the difference between Arch, Ubunutu, and Debian to a normal consumer and their eyes glaze over before you even begin. That's not true. Their main differences are how they handle software releases, install/update software and how you install them. If you're not a complete digital analphabet you'll understand such easy concepts.
- Kuraj 9y ago
  > That's why ubuntu is a popular choice. I stopped rooting for Ubuntu to win the casual user, when they moved the caption buttons from right to left, and deliberately didn't provide an option in the UI to turn it back. You may think it's trivial, but it showed attitude that was, in my opinion, totally user hostile. Even Microsoft wouldn't go that far.
  - Someone123456 9y ago
    Oh, then what happened when they removed the good old menu and added a tiled one which is hated by the majority of their users? They needed to readd the old one in some form in the latest version.
  - legulere 9y ago
    Microsoft went that far when they copied macOS and deliberately changed things like moving caption buttons from left to right.
    - gsich 9y ago
      No they didn't.
rbanffy 9y ago
> easiest out-of-the-box-this-thing-just-works experiences. Have you ever tried to debug a wi-fi issue? I had a Windows box that completely refused to connect to my home wi-fi. We never figured that out and corporate had to issue a new laptop for my wife to work from home. The second one worked. Nobody ever figured out what the problem with the first one was.

AlexeyBrin 9y ago

> It's also the same experience every single time you use a Windows machine. Recently I helped a small company migrate their PCs from Windows 7 to Windows 10. Trust me, it is not the same experience at all for the end users. They (the users) will get used to the new interface and way of interacting with the OS not because it is more intuitive but because they will use it and gain experience with it.

Spivak 9y ago
I think the mistake is assuming that software can be intuitive. I think the correct model is that it's more like language. You memorize a few fundamental concepts and then you amass a catalog of rote steps for accomplishing your goals. Then there will be a moment where it all clicks and you realize you're fluent enough for your purposes and can understand the unfamiliar in the context of what you already know. Going from Windows 7 -> 10 is like going from English to Scottish. The grammar is mostly the same but a lot of the words and phrases are different.
cm2187 9y ago
I will never get used to have ads being displayed in the OS or to have random junk apps appearing in my start menu every couple of months. Microsoft sabotaged their main platform. It would have a major opportunity for other OS.
- navjack27 9y ago
  That actually doesn't happen. You make it sound like there are straight up random ads. You install Windows 10 and there are shortcuts to popular Windows store apps that you can right click and remove. Not any different than installing, it was either Fedora or Debian, I think Fedora, and getting 'ads' for apps.
  - bwat48 9y ago
    It's still pretty annoying though. And even if you disable those ads in the settings, it seems like the preference randomly gets switched back on every other time you update windows It's been a few releases since I used fedora, but I don't recall ever seeing any kind of ads in the apps menu... and the vast majority of linux distros don't have any of that kind of garbage
  - kasabali 9y ago
    Yeah not straight up random ads, just promotions for random apps, auto installing some random games, random promotions in notification area and then OneDrive and Office 365 ads in File Explorer. Totally and honestly like in Debian and Fedora I swear. - https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/17/14956540/microsoft-windows-10-ads-taskbar-file-explorer https://www.theverge.com/2017/3/17/14956540/microsoft-window...

Someone123456 9y ago

> Normal users don't want and/or need that much choice. No need to take it. That's why ubuntu is a popular choice. > Say what you want about the (many) flaws of Windows, but you can't deny that one of the easiest out-of-the-box-this-thing-just-works experiences. Except when it doesn't install the right drivers(compared to distros like manjaro) and when you get a crappy browser by default or when the menu just crashes or fails to find what is certainly there. Or when you need to suspend your work because it's Update Time Like it or Not™. It's definitely not the best out-of-the-box experience, but the one which is the most advertized with the most misc software. > Try explaining the difference between Arch, Ubunutu, and Debian to a normal consumer and their eyes glaze over before you even begin. That's not true. Their main differences are how they handle software releases, install/update software and how you install them. If you're not a complete digital analphabet you'll understand such easy concepts.

Kuraj 9y ago
> That's why ubuntu is a popular choice. I stopped rooting for Ubuntu to win the casual user, when they moved the caption buttons from right to left, and deliberately didn't provide an option in the UI to turn it back. You may think it's trivial, but it showed attitude that was, in my opinion, totally user hostile. Even Microsoft wouldn't go that far.
- Someone123456 9y ago
  Oh, then what happened when they removed the good old menu and added a tiled one which is hated by the majority of their users? They needed to readd the old one in some form in the latest version.
- legulere 9y ago
  Microsoft went that far when they copied macOS and deliberately changed things like moving caption buttons from left to right.
  - gsich 9y ago
    No they didn't.

rbanffy 9y ago

> easiest out-of-the-box-this-thing-just-works experiences. Have you ever tried to debug a wi-fi issue? I had a Windows box that completely refused to connect to my home wi-fi. We never figured that out and corporate had to issue a new laptop for my wife to work from home. The second one worked. Nobody ever figured out what the problem with the first one was.