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Computers aren't racist, algorithms aren't racist, data aren't racist. Computers are inanimate objects, algorithms are instructions and data are bytes. None of

Computers aren't racist, algorithms aren't racist, data aren't racist. Computers are inanimate objects, algorithms are instructions and data are bytes. None of those things can possibly be racist.

ufo 9y ago
This comment is missing the point. The problem is that the algorithms can reinforce the disadvantaged situation of some groups of people, instead of help improve it. And the thin veneer of objectivity that the algorithms provide can legitimize something that might be effectively a racist policy.
- grawprog 9y ago
  Then they're shitty algorithms that don't work properly or your data is incomplete. If your data is showing biases it's because they exist in the world not because the data is racist.
  - ufo 9y ago
    Yes, the problem has always been about what we do with the data instead of the data itself. The issue now is that people currently put a lot of blind trust on machine learning, even if the input data is garbage or the output doesn't have the intended result.
    - grawprog 9y ago
      Not just machine learning. I remember learning in ecology that if the computer models didn't match with reality. Reality was probably wrong the model just needed better variables. I remember thinking how incredibly stupid that was at the time. Now I realize that's the way it works with everything and has for a while. The problem with modelling real world systems is there are too many variables and we have no way of knowing just how many their are and what effects they all actually have on a system. We can never make a complete model yet we act and make decisions as a society as though our models are complete and infallible.
- justaman 9y ago
  I don't think its necessarily the job of data to improve a situation. Rather its the data that will define the problem.
justaman 9y ago
"Racism/racist" in the last few years has become this all encompassing term to label bad anything that's inconvenient to otherwise interpret as a difference. Its gotten to the point where I do not click media links where race is included in the title. Wild accusations of injustice get click$.
blatherard 9y ago
There are two ways to understand racism. One is to think of it as an attitude held by an individual that causes them to act in particular ways. The other way is to think of it as a system that perpetuates inequality, independently of the internal attitudes of individual actors. If you’re using the former definition, you’re possibly correct, if you believe that computers can and will never have attitudes toward things. If the latter definition, you most certainly can have computers perpetuating a system of racism, even if they are lacking internal attitudes.
- grawprog 9y ago
  That second definition of racism is idiotic. That has nothing to do with race. A system of inequality can be caused by lots of things. The entire fucking world is a system of inequality regardless of your race. The biggest thing separating people right now isn't even race it's money. I see people of all colours and races every day united by their poverty, I also see them united in their wealth.
  - blatherard 9y ago
    Sorry, I was typing on a mobile device. I thought it was obvious that I was talking in both cases about a system of inequality based on some notion of "race". Also, saying that there is one system of inequality doesn't mean there aren't others. Class is certainly another, related, system. But one doesn't reduce to another.
    - grawprog 9y ago
      >But one doesn't reduce to another. Yes it does. Every day I see people far more affected by class based inequality than race based inequality. Right now not having money would affect you far more than being a different race than you are.If you suddenly became a different race overnight chances are your life really wouldn't change that much, if you lost your job and all your money you'd be totally fucked. That means by definition one has a higher impact on the world.
      - 9y ago

Computers aren't racist, algorithms aren't racist, data aren't racist. Computers are inanimate objects, algorithms are instructions and data are bytes. None of those things can possibly be racist.

ufo 9y ago

This comment is missing the point. The problem is that the algorithms can reinforce the disadvantaged situation of some groups of people, instead of help improve it. And the thin veneer of objectivity that the algorithms provide can legitimize something that might be effectively a racist policy.

grawprog 9y ago
Then they're shitty algorithms that don't work properly or your data is incomplete. If your data is showing biases it's because they exist in the world not because the data is racist.
- ufo 9y ago
  Yes, the problem has always been about what we do with the data instead of the data itself. The issue now is that people currently put a lot of blind trust on machine learning, even if the input data is garbage or the output doesn't have the intended result.
  - grawprog 9y ago
    Not just machine learning. I remember learning in ecology that if the computer models didn't match with reality. Reality was probably wrong the model just needed better variables. I remember thinking how incredibly stupid that was at the time. Now I realize that's the way it works with everything and has for a while. The problem with modelling real world systems is there are too many variables and we have no way of knowing just how many their are and what effects they all actually have on a system. We can never make a complete model yet we act and make decisions as a society as though our models are complete and infallible.
justaman 9y ago
I don't think its necessarily the job of data to improve a situation. Rather its the data that will define the problem.

justaman 9y ago

"Racism/racist" in the last few years has become this all encompassing term to label bad anything that's inconvenient to otherwise interpret as a difference. Its gotten to the point where I do not click media links where race is included in the title. Wild accusations of injustice get click$.

blatherard 9y ago

There are two ways to understand racism. One is to think of it as an attitude held by an individual that causes them to act in particular ways. The other way is to think of it as a system that perpetuates inequality, independently of the internal attitudes of individual actors. If you’re using the former definition, you’re possibly correct, if you believe that computers can and will never have attitudes toward things. If the latter definition, you most certainly can have computers perpetuating a system of racism, even if they are lacking internal attitudes.

grawprog 9y ago
That second definition of racism is idiotic. That has nothing to do with race. A system of inequality can be caused by lots of things. The entire fucking world is a system of inequality regardless of your race. The biggest thing separating people right now isn't even race it's money. I see people of all colours and races every day united by their poverty, I also see them united in their wealth.
- blatherard 9y ago
  Sorry, I was typing on a mobile device. I thought it was obvious that I was talking in both cases about a system of inequality based on some notion of "race". Also, saying that there is one system of inequality doesn't mean there aren't others. Class is certainly another, related, system. But one doesn't reduce to another.
  - grawprog 9y ago
    >But one doesn't reduce to another. Yes it does. Every day I see people far more affected by class based inequality than race based inequality. Right now not having money would affect you far more than being a different race than you are.If you suddenly became a different race overnight chances are your life really wouldn't change that much, if you lost your job and all your money you'd be totally fucked. That means by definition one has a higher impact on the world.
    - 9y ago