4 ms·

Not actually using any, but if scale problems come, we have the following order: Jruby, Clojure, Scala. The reasons behind the order: * Jruby, because we reall

Not actually using any, but if scale problems come, we have the following order: Jruby, Clojure, Scala. The reasons behind the order: * Jruby, because we really like the level of metaprogramming of ruby, the readability, the ammount of libraries, the effort Charles Nutter put into making it a very good port of ruby, and the library support that feels like ruby (dsl-ish, easy to use, easy to change, with tests as documentation, etc), even if you are not using Rails. * Clojure, because it is dynamic, and enforces immutable state (most of the time), it has great metaprogramming support as well (which is very important for readbility), and you can use type annotations to remove all reflection code, and use direct invoking (as fast as java). * Scala, because it is much more convenient to use than Java (and has other advantages, http://bit.ly/4DIKy4 http://bit.ly/4DIKy4), while still being compiled to very efficient java bytecode. Its static typing has issues (http://bit.ly/asQ7FC http://bit.ly/asQ7FC), as its lack of metaprogramming. Implicit conversions, on the other hand, can deal with it for most part. *Java/Groovy: Scala should be the lowest level we would like to handle. Groovy feels a bit like Ruby, it has more metaprogramming facilities (like categories, and AST manipulations are builtin, unlike Ruby's Parse Tree, which doesn't work on 1.9). However, Jruby is the same language we use everywhere else, and Groovy is not faster than clojure. So it is a "master of none" type of language. Not to mention that its stack trace is riddled with java garbage, and it feels a lot like Java, which is really a put off. This is mosty for backend, as with are probably sticking with Sinatra on front end for a looong while. Twitter uses Rails on front end even nowadays, so it seems like we won't have too much problem with it as well.

WALoeIII 16y ago
I wouldn't necessarily put Clojure between JRuby and Scala (I hope I am not misinterpreting). I think it should be more along side of JRuby depending on the type of problem you are trying to tackle, it supports a totally different paradigm of programming.
- DanielRibeiro 16y ago
  This is our options. Jruby and clojure are both dynamic, and we prefer them over static typing of Scala. But jruby is closer to ruby, therefore clojure takes the second place in our list. Scala's type inference makes the typing a lot less of burden, when compared to java, but it is still there. Just our options. Feel free to make your own. People with lots of Groovy experience may choose Groovy, and those who really don't need much metaprogramming support may choose Scala. This is just not our case. Some people also feel very uncomfortable with the lack of almost perfect auto-complete. Ctrl+k (text complete) on Netbeans is magical enough for us most of the time. We use lots of TDD, such that we can also refactor safely, therefore, type safety feels more like a burden when writing tests for things that don't exist on statically typed languages than on dynamic. Again, is a matter of taste as well.
- rossedwards 16y ago
  The problem is that there really isnt any definition of languages within the java landscape right now. Meaning theres a bunch of languages but noen really stand out for any specifc uses with the expection of people that know them well and are using them well. So its very confusing to know which to use. For example Grails and groovy were supposed to be big on the java framework but due to seveeral reasons they seem to be really more niche. PArtly because it seems the people behind both of them just arent dealing wiht the problems such as bugs quickly enough. Scala is an interesting language but again there doesnt seem to be a heavy push for it. Expect for peopel that are using it and know what its strengths are. All of which leads to alot of confusion about which technology to use. Then theres the issue of frameworks. Theres a million of them but none of them really stand out. ANd personally i dont think it helps that oracle is no running things. On the other hand ruby is known by many people as being pretty powerful and used by alot of startups. Same thing with php. How many startups do you know that use java? I know foursqaure uses liftweb but thats about it.
  - DanielRibeiro 16y ago
    Just because you are not aware of what is being used, does not mean that it is not used. Scala startups: KaChing (follow http://twitter.com/eishay http://twitter.com/eishay for more info, he talks a lot about the Lean startup practises on Kaching as well) and Etherpad (wave-like product, bought by google last year). Eishay also gave a great hint for startups looking for scalable technologies: http://twitter.com/eishay/statuses/20478841811 http://twitter.com/eishay/statuses/20478841811 Flightcaster, which is funded by YCombinator, uses clojure and Ruby on heroku (more on their infoq profile: http://www.infoq.com/articles/flightcaster-clojure-rails http://www.infoq.com/articles/flightcaster-clojure-rails). Most startups are not actually vocal about what they use. Most of them actually are not heard, so they could be as vocal as they wanted and still noone would hear them.

WALoeIII 16y ago

I wouldn't necessarily put Clojure between JRuby and Scala (I hope I am not misinterpreting). I think it should be more along side of JRuby depending on the type of problem you are trying to tackle, it supports a totally different paradigm of programming.

DanielRibeiro 16y ago
This is our options. Jruby and clojure are both dynamic, and we prefer them over static typing of Scala. But jruby is closer to ruby, therefore clojure takes the second place in our list. Scala's type inference makes the typing a lot less of burden, when compared to java, but it is still there. Just our options. Feel free to make your own. People with lots of Groovy experience may choose Groovy, and those who really don't need much metaprogramming support may choose Scala. This is just not our case. Some people also feel very uncomfortable with the lack of almost perfect auto-complete. Ctrl+k (text complete) on Netbeans is magical enough for us most of the time. We use lots of TDD, such that we can also refactor safely, therefore, type safety feels more like a burden when writing tests for things that don't exist on statically typed languages than on dynamic. Again, is a matter of taste as well.
rossedwards 16y ago
The problem is that there really isnt any definition of languages within the java landscape right now. Meaning theres a bunch of languages but noen really stand out for any specifc uses with the expection of people that know them well and are using them well. So its very confusing to know which to use. For example Grails and groovy were supposed to be big on the java framework but due to seveeral reasons they seem to be really more niche. PArtly because it seems the people behind both of them just arent dealing wiht the problems such as bugs quickly enough. Scala is an interesting language but again there doesnt seem to be a heavy push for it. Expect for peopel that are using it and know what its strengths are. All of which leads to alot of confusion about which technology to use. Then theres the issue of frameworks. Theres a million of them but none of them really stand out. ANd personally i dont think it helps that oracle is no running things. On the other hand ruby is known by many people as being pretty powerful and used by alot of startups. Same thing with php. How many startups do you know that use java? I know foursqaure uses liftweb but thats about it.
- DanielRibeiro 16y ago
  Just because you are not aware of what is being used, does not mean that it is not used. Scala startups: KaChing (follow http://twitter.com/eishay http://twitter.com/eishay for more info, he talks a lot about the Lean startup practises on Kaching as well) and Etherpad (wave-like product, bought by google last year). Eishay also gave a great hint for startups looking for scalable technologies: http://twitter.com/eishay/statuses/20478841811 http://twitter.com/eishay/statuses/20478841811 Flightcaster, which is funded by YCombinator, uses clojure and Ruby on heroku (more on their infoq profile: http://www.infoq.com/articles/flightcaster-clojure-rails http://www.infoq.com/articles/flightcaster-clojure-rails). Most startups are not actually vocal about what they use. Most of them actually are not heard, so they could be as vocal as they wanted and still noone would hear them.