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"I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker." Exactly. Apple isn't really about winning or losing; they

"I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker." Exactly. Apple isn't really about winning or losing; they're rewriting the game. Does it really get more "hackerly" than that?

spokey 16y ago
I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think we should be careful that "hacker" doesn't lose meaning altogether. This thread is coming close to defining "hacking" as simply "winning". That is, if it works, it's hackerly, if it doesn't, it isn't.
- toddheasley 16y ago
  The winning/losing framing is from the essay itself. If anything, this thread is coming closer to defining "hacking" as not simply "writing code." The question is whether or not Apple has a hacker culture, since one could argue that, while Apple's software tends to be great, it's a byproduct of their obsession with beautiful products, rather than their singular focus. I'm suggesting that, if anything, the tendency on Hacker News is to define "hacking" as simply "writing code," whereas, I think it's more about the intent. You could argue, very easily, that Y Combinator is hacking venture capital -- or that Apple is hacking the entire ecosystem around their products.
  - spokey 16y ago
    I agree that "hacking" connotes more than simply "coding". I'm not going to venture more complete definition here, but I think a lot of the themes around "unix culture" (e.g., small pieces loosely joined), open source (e.g. bazaar vs. cathedral approach to design and architecture), and even agile methodologies (e.g. "the simplest thing that could possibly work") could apply. But there's more to it than that. From this perspective, I agree that you could easily characterize Y Combinator as "hacking" VC. I just don't see what Apple is doing as hacking. In fact, in some ways it seems to me that Apple is doing the opposite of hacking (or at least trying to give that impression). Apple seems to want to create an impression of "intelligent design" around their products--they've got it all figured out and are delivering it to you complete, fully-formed and flawless. To my mind "hacking" connotes a more evolutionary approach: let's just try this and iterate. This isn't a value judgement on either approach, I just have a hard time aligning Apple's behaviour as an organization with my personal understanding of "hackerly".

spokey 16y ago

I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think we should be careful that "hacker" doesn't lose meaning altogether. This thread is coming close to defining "hacking" as simply "winning". That is, if it works, it's hackerly, if it doesn't, it isn't.

toddheasley 16y ago
The winning/losing framing is from the essay itself. If anything, this thread is coming closer to defining "hacking" as not simply "writing code." The question is whether or not Apple has a hacker culture, since one could argue that, while Apple's software tends to be great, it's a byproduct of their obsession with beautiful products, rather than their singular focus. I'm suggesting that, if anything, the tendency on Hacker News is to define "hacking" as simply "writing code," whereas, I think it's more about the intent. You could argue, very easily, that Y Combinator is hacking venture capital -- or that Apple is hacking the entire ecosystem around their products.
- spokey 16y ago
  I agree that "hacking" connotes more than simply "coding". I'm not going to venture more complete definition here, but I think a lot of the themes around "unix culture" (e.g., small pieces loosely joined), open source (e.g. bazaar vs. cathedral approach to design and architecture), and even agile methodologies (e.g. "the simplest thing that could possibly work") could apply. But there's more to it than that. From this perspective, I agree that you could easily characterize Y Combinator as "hacking" VC. I just don't see what Apple is doing as hacking. In fact, in some ways it seems to me that Apple is doing the opposite of hacking (or at least trying to give that impression). Apple seems to want to create an impression of "intelligent design" around their products--they've got it all figured out and are delivering it to you complete, fully-formed and flawless. To my mind "hacking" connotes a more evolutionary approach: let's just try this and iterate. This isn't a value judgement on either approach, I just have a hard time aligning Apple's behaviour as an organization with my personal understanding of "hackerly".