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> This tool is the proof that Python has significant problems at scale... This does not prove your point. Annotating a large dynamically-typed codebase with ty

by kbd 9y ago

> This tool is the proof that Python has significant problems at scale... This does not prove your point. Annotating a large dynamically-typed codebase with type information is a large amount of work, regardless of the language. This tool makes that easier.

blub 9y ago
I'm bemused by your reply and curious to know why you think Dropbox and Instagram are working on static type analysers for their large Python code bases. Instagram at least gave us a hint: "we’re keen to make our code easier for new developers to read and understand, as well as more amenable to static analysis that shrinks the domain of possible bugs". It seems to me it's so difficult to manage such a code base, that they decided to do that "large amount of work" in addition to the large amount of work required to develop the necessary tools! In which case it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base.
- outsideoflife 9y ago
  Isn't dropbox doing it partially to aid a future migration to Python 3? > In which case it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base When I first saw Instagram I thought it was nonsense, I was wrong. When the founders started Instagram, I wonder if they had the amazing foresight to see what it would become. I would suggest getting to market was more valuable to them than worrying about what maintenance they would have to do once they had a billion dollars
- bonesss 9y ago
  > ... it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base. While I'm a type-adherent in my day-to-day (F# represent, wut wuuut), I think this isn't reflective of the chicken and egg dilemma for startups... There are an immense number of things they "should be" doing at scale that they can't do early because they're relying on their early product to scale. Time to market, and windows of opportunity, are critical to startups. Any immature technical decision at that part of the lifecycle needs to be made not with an attempt to make perfect forever from the start, but rather with an eye to transitioning to smarter solutions aggressively as you scale up. The company may be 6 pivots away from success, so better to validate solutions in the market than prognosticate. I don't accept the premise that a lack of typing significantly improves development velocity, per se, but language decisions are about ecosystems, key components, and local talent. Where these companies get into coo-coo land is not integrating those immature components into better systems as they're getting bigger. Next thing you know someone is writing a whole compiler chain for PHP in an attempt to reinvent a sane programming language, or trying to get Python to be Java. Smart, modern, functional languages provide development velocity and pleasure equal to Python with fundamental type safety and guarantees. But in a world where just putting a button on a webpage means multiple dialects in multiple languages I think we should be ok mixing and matching on the backend to scale smartly.
- baq 9y ago
  Yes it does and it doesn't matter, because an argument can be made that there wouldn't be a Dropbox or an Instagram if they started out in a statically typed language back then.

by kbd 9y ago

blub 9y ago

I'm bemused by your reply and curious to know why you think Dropbox and Instagram are working on static type analysers for their large Python code bases. Instagram at least gave us a hint: "we’re keen to make our code easier for new developers to read and understand, as well as more amenable to static analysis that shrinks the domain of possible bugs". It seems to me it's so difficult to manage such a code base, that they decided to do that "large amount of work" in addition to the large amount of work required to develop the necessary tools! In which case it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base.

outsideoflife 9y ago
Isn't dropbox doing it partially to aid a future migration to Python 3? > In which case it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base When I first saw Instagram I thought it was nonsense, I was wrong. When the founders started Instagram, I wonder if they had the amazing foresight to see what it would become. I would suggest getting to market was more valuable to them than worrying about what maintenance they would have to do once they had a billion dollars
bonesss 9y ago
> ... it seems prudent to avoid the said amount of work by picking another programming language for one's large-scale code base. While I'm a type-adherent in my day-to-day (F# represent, wut wuuut), I think this isn't reflective of the chicken and egg dilemma for startups... There are an immense number of things they "should be" doing at scale that they can't do early because they're relying on their early product to scale. Time to market, and windows of opportunity, are critical to startups. Any immature technical decision at that part of the lifecycle needs to be made not with an attempt to make perfect forever from the start, but rather with an eye to transitioning to smarter solutions aggressively as you scale up. The company may be 6 pivots away from success, so better to validate solutions in the market than prognosticate. I don't accept the premise that a lack of typing significantly improves development velocity, per se, but language decisions are about ecosystems, key components, and local talent. Where these companies get into coo-coo land is not integrating those immature components into better systems as they're getting bigger. Next thing you know someone is writing a whole compiler chain for PHP in an attempt to reinvent a sane programming language, or trying to get Python to be Java. Smart, modern, functional languages provide development velocity and pleasure equal to Python with fundamental type safety and guarantees. But in a world where just putting a button on a webpage means multiple dialects in multiple languages I think we should be ok mixing and matching on the backend to scale smartly.
baq 9y ago
Yes it does and it doesn't matter, because an argument can be made that there wouldn't be a Dropbox or an Instagram if they started out in a statically typed language back then.