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> What they should really do is force apps to disclose the maximum amount a player can spend, front-and-center in the app store. And then also display other sta

> What they should really do is force apps to disclose the maximum amount a player can spend, front-and-center in the app store. And then also display other statistics - like the ARPU and ARPPU (average revenue per user, and average revenue per paying user). And then allow us to filter apps based on that criteria. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I recently quit Hearthstone once I realized that the game was slowly sucking me into paying more. It's a great game. But they obfuscate the true cost of playing. In that digital card game, players want specific cards to build a specific deck. But the manner in which you acquire specific cards is expensive, and the expense is heavily obfuscated. I doubt that most players understand the real cost of playing. To get a card, you need to buy a card pack. Card packs have 5 random cards (with a rather complex algorithm behind what cards are in a pack). These cards can be duplicates, which you could transform into "dust" (a kind of currency) to buy the card you actually want. The true cost of buying a specific card that you might want depends on a bunch of factors, such as how many duplicates you already have. In Hearthstone and other "free to play" games, the true cost of playing is nebulous. The game acquires players partly by advertising that playing is free. However, in reality they are likely among the most expensive games you could play. The cost of acquiring a complete set of all cards in a Hearthstone expansion is around $400 [1]. Which is insane. In order to play competitively, you probably need half that -- which is still around $200. If the costs were clearly and honestly labeled, players wouldn't play. So they aren't. I hope the industry self-regulates, like they did with the ESRB and censorship. I hate the direction the industry has taken here. 1. https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/04/14/it-costs-400-for-a-full-ungoro-expansion-card-set-in-hearthstone/#47580e0644fe https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/04/14/it-costs-...

hfourm 9y ago
To be fair, Hearthstone is one of the better value games! It is still a "collectible" card game, from a very reputable company, with a lot of expected longevity -- based on a huge universe. You get to use your cards against other players, etc They also give you fairly consistent means of getting free cards. There are so many Gacha style games that are WAY more of a rip off than that. They get you sucked into the game, then the only way to progress is to become a whale. It is awful
- mulmen 9y ago
  I'm not sure that "Hearthstone is less predatory" is a fair argument. The criticism against Hearthstone is still valid, even if there are other offenders.
  - hfourm 9y ago
    I see hearthstone cards as more of an expansion pack per say, its also got a long established history in the physical space (games like Magic, etc) There are huge tournaments every month, a huge twitch scene, etc Its a legit game and most people know what they are getting into. DBZ Dokkan battle on the other hand....
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      ??? Tournaments or a huge Twitch scene don't make it legit or not. They tell us something about a game's size or impact. Small (indie) games can be loads of fun. I had more fun with a simple game like Airmash [1] than I ever had in WoW because that game is fair, and you need skill. You can't grind towards an advantage. If you did, you can lose it very quickly. Evens playing field. Blizzard games, with the exception of Starcraft II, are made for carebears with too much time who want to feel good beating players who put less time in the game not by becoming better (as games used to work) but by getting better gear/equipment/cards/characters. A dog eat dog world, essentially. I've learned and adapted to find that evil. [1] https://airma.sh/ https://airma.sh/
  - jrs95 9y ago
    Is it? I can play ranked and do fairly well, and I've never spent any money on cards. It just takes a bit of patience. Of F2P games I've played, it's been the best at this. Hearthstone is an especially great value if you're comparing it to traditional TCGs. The cost to play something like Magic The Gathering is absurd, but you can play Hearthstone for free if you want to.
- kregasaurusrex 9y ago
  I used to view it as good value for a casual game until the announcement of where as new expansion sets are rolled out, previous ones are sunsetted. It essentially gives a 1-2 year expiration date on any new packs purchased rather than making a limited or ban list for certain specific cards. Then again, Activision stock has increased by a decent margin so there's at least one group of people who likes it.
jtchang 9y ago
On the flip side I enjoy playing Hearthstone and getting a chance to enjoy it for free. In a way it is kind of like shareware back in the day.
- methodover 9y ago
  Sort of. Shareware... except the price of the game is actually unlabeled, and turns out to be hundreds of dollars per year.
- spunker540 9y ago
  The key to playing competitively without spending money is the arena where it’s a level playing field for everyone. Unfortunately arena play is still limited (unless you’re willing to pay of course!)
r00fus 9y ago
It takes considerable will, but I have a HS account that I use that essentially paid nothing for (except the starter kit for $10 b/c it's a great deal). I can't play competitively but Arena and Tavern Brawl are usually newbie friendly. One friend of mine setup a bot years ago and essentially mined gold (got banned and reinstated) and got most cards. Of course, that's cheating but as my old JH football coach once said "if you're not cheating you're not trying" Hoping for industry self-regulation is like hoping Wall St. will suddenly grow a conscience. Especially given who's doing the regulating these days.
- Fnoord 9y ago
  > It takes considerable will And time. Time where you're weaker than your enemies who are further in the grind. How about this shortcut here? Points at booster packs
- diegoperini 9y ago
  If only arena isn't payed with gold too.
on_and_off 9y ago
This was already pissing me off for real life TCG.. I stopped playing them because of that. The synergy between cards is interesting but I don't have the patience or want to invest the money into getting card x or y. Not to mention that I don't want 'whether you can spend 500$ on cards' to be a deciding factor in a match.. I find this even more ridiculous in a video game (and even predatory).
greggman 9y ago
$400 for all card might be insane but I know many friends that spent thousands on magic the gathering cards under the same concept. I suppose those should have been regulated too but as other have pointed out baseball cards operate under similar premises. You pay for pack hoping to get rare cards and or cards you don't own. not really sure where to draw the line
- bonesss 9y ago
  It's a giant grey zone, for sure. Morally I find baseball or Magic cards fundamentally different because they are an end in and of themselves... Lootboxes are generally attached to an audio/visual pleasure center simulator which is constantly encouraging further investment into tweaking that pleasure/dysphoria loop. Honest gambling, like with slot machines, are also straightforward about their purpose. Attaching a slot-machine experience to ordering food at McDonalds isn't deceptive per se, but would seem as dubious as lootboxes.

hfourm 9y ago

To be fair, Hearthstone is one of the better value games! It is still a "collectible" card game, from a very reputable company, with a lot of expected longevity -- based on a huge universe. You get to use your cards against other players, etc They also give you fairly consistent means of getting free cards. There are so many Gacha style games that are WAY more of a rip off than that. They get you sucked into the game, then the only way to progress is to become a whale. It is awful

mulmen 9y ago
I'm not sure that "Hearthstone is less predatory" is a fair argument. The criticism against Hearthstone is still valid, even if there are other offenders.
- hfourm 9y ago
  I see hearthstone cards as more of an expansion pack per say, its also got a long established history in the physical space (games like Magic, etc) There are huge tournaments every month, a huge twitch scene, etc Its a legit game and most people know what they are getting into. DBZ Dokkan battle on the other hand....
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    ??? Tournaments or a huge Twitch scene don't make it legit or not. They tell us something about a game's size or impact. Small (indie) games can be loads of fun. I had more fun with a simple game like Airmash [1] than I ever had in WoW because that game is fair, and you need skill. You can't grind towards an advantage. If you did, you can lose it very quickly. Evens playing field. Blizzard games, with the exception of Starcraft II, are made for carebears with too much time who want to feel good beating players who put less time in the game not by becoming better (as games used to work) but by getting better gear/equipment/cards/characters. A dog eat dog world, essentially. I've learned and adapted to find that evil. [1] https://airma.sh/ https://airma.sh/
- jrs95 9y ago
  Is it? I can play ranked and do fairly well, and I've never spent any money on cards. It just takes a bit of patience. Of F2P games I've played, it's been the best at this. Hearthstone is an especially great value if you're comparing it to traditional TCGs. The cost to play something like Magic The Gathering is absurd, but you can play Hearthstone for free if you want to.
kregasaurusrex 9y ago
I used to view it as good value for a casual game until the announcement of where as new expansion sets are rolled out, previous ones are sunsetted. It essentially gives a 1-2 year expiration date on any new packs purchased rather than making a limited or ban list for certain specific cards. Then again, Activision stock has increased by a decent margin so there's at least one group of people who likes it.

jtchang 9y ago

On the flip side I enjoy playing Hearthstone and getting a chance to enjoy it for free. In a way it is kind of like shareware back in the day.

methodover 9y ago
Sort of. Shareware... except the price of the game is actually unlabeled, and turns out to be hundreds of dollars per year.
spunker540 9y ago
The key to playing competitively without spending money is the arena where it’s a level playing field for everyone. Unfortunately arena play is still limited (unless you’re willing to pay of course!)

r00fus 9y ago

It takes considerable will, but I have a HS account that I use that essentially paid nothing for (except the starter kit for $10 b/c it's a great deal). I can't play competitively but Arena and Tavern Brawl are usually newbie friendly. One friend of mine setup a bot years ago and essentially mined gold (got banned and reinstated) and got most cards. Of course, that's cheating but as my old JH football coach once said "if you're not cheating you're not trying" Hoping for industry self-regulation is like hoping Wall St. will suddenly grow a conscience. Especially given who's doing the regulating these days.

Fnoord 9y ago
> It takes considerable will And time. Time where you're weaker than your enemies who are further in the grind. How about this shortcut here? Points at booster packs
diegoperini 9y ago
If only arena isn't payed with gold too.

on_and_off 9y ago

This was already pissing me off for real life TCG.. I stopped playing them because of that. The synergy between cards is interesting but I don't have the patience or want to invest the money into getting card x or y. Not to mention that I don't want 'whether you can spend 500$ on cards' to be a deciding factor in a match.. I find this even more ridiculous in a video game (and even predatory).

greggman 9y ago

$400 for all card might be insane but I know many friends that spent thousands on magic the gathering cards under the same concept. I suppose those should have been regulated too but as other have pointed out baseball cards operate under similar premises. You pay for pack hoping to get rare cards and or cards you don't own. not really sure where to draw the line

bonesss 9y ago
It's a giant grey zone, for sure. Morally I find baseball or Magic cards fundamentally different because they are an end in and of themselves... Lootboxes are generally attached to an audio/visual pleasure center simulator which is constantly encouraging further investment into tweaking that pleasure/dysphoria loop. Honest gambling, like with slot machines, are also straightforward about their purpose. Attaching a slot-machine experience to ordering food at McDonalds isn't deceptive per se, but would seem as dubious as lootboxes.