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Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality

by tpush 9y ago

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level.

user5994461 9y ago
Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE.
- jen20 9y ago
  Why? iOS has by most measures less than 50% of the market.
  - connorelsea 9y ago
    Even with a low market share Apple could still theoretically be engaging in practices that are anti-consumer, such as disallowing the use of other browser engines. Though, afaik, Apple does not stoop to the levels of Amazon, who removed the Twitch app from Roku platform for absolutely no reason other than to line their pockets with more cash.
    - joshred 9y ago
      Before they purchased it?
      - connorelsea 9y ago
        Nah, after - to make it a "Fire TV Exclusive" app http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/amazon-pulls-twitch-channel-roku/ http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/amazon-pulls-twitch-channel-r...
    - baddox 9y ago
      Aren’t anticompetitive and anti-consumer two completely separate things?
      - connorelsea 9y ago
        Yes, but I would say that anti-competitive behavior is inherently anti-consumer, as the consumer does not benefit from it - and Apple preventing other browser engines is both
    - Someone 9y ago
      Anti-trust is there for cases where society thinks 1) the free market doesn’t work because it is too hard for competition to enter an existing market or for existing competition to dethrone a market leader. _and_ 2) the big player(s) take (too much) advantage of their position by engaging in ‘anti-consumer’ practices. Given the existence of Android, Apple isn’t in position 1. So, do you think (2) alone is sufficient for taking legal action? The common thinking is that the market will take care of it by by bankrupting the company doing it.
      - devit 9y ago
        Android doesn't run iOS apps. Apple has a monopoly on OSes that run iOS apps, OSes that run on iPhones, phones that run iOS and on App Stores that can install iOS apps. They abuse all of them (e.g. the Webkit-only issue for iOS, monopoly pricing on iPhones, censorship in App Store). Conversely e.g. Google has none of these monopolies except for the monopoly in running perfectly apps that require Google Play Services.
        jhasse 9y ago
        > Apple has a monopoly on OSes that run iOS apps, OSes that run on iPhones, phones that run iOS and on App Stores that can install iOS apps. You could also say that Samsung has a monopoly of smartphones with "SAMSUNG" printed on them.
- threeseed 9y ago
  1) iOS is not a monopoly. 2) Apple has legitimate technical reasons for not allowing other browser engines (well specifically the JS part). Intent matters.
  - riquito 9y ago
    > Apple has legitimate technical reasons for not allowing other browser engines (well specifically the JS part). Intent matters. Oh please... source?
    - pls2halp 9y ago
      1) JavaScript allows for arbitrary code execution 2) Apple’s App Store policies disallow the user from executing arbitrary code I think you can figure this out yourself.
      - toxican 9y ago
        These are excuses, not valid technical reasons.
    - threeseed 9y ago
      Remote execution of code is a very popular attack vector. Apple can negate this almost entirely by controlling JavascriptCore and WebKit and ensuring that their security models e.g. sandbox are tight and well tested. Leaving that up to third parties who may not be so vigilant compromises the security of the entire device.
    - 0x0 9y ago
      Efficient javascript needs to be JIT'ed, but that means your app needs to be granted API access to map writeable memory as executable, which is a security risk they are not willing to grant third party developers. So a third party browser/js engine will likely be quite slow. I guess this would give users of a bad impression of iOS perfomance as a whole then, if other browser engines were allowed and became popular?
      - 9y ago
- alwillis 9y ago
  Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE. You must be new around here. ;-) Microsoft used their natural monopoly in operating systems (Windows has 95% marketshare) to force OEMs (HP, Compaq, etc.) to bundle IE with their machines and not Netscape Navigator. Microsoft threaten to cancel their Windows licenses. And later, it decided, against its decent decree with the US government, to bundle IE with Windows, claiming Windows wouldn't function without IE, which was a lie. Perhaps you're not aware that natural monopolies are themselves not illegal; it's using that monopoly to force the market to do things it ordinarily wouldn't in some other area. So… no, there are no antitrust issues regarding web engines on iOS. And of course, Google, Mozilla and others have browsers on the App Store that use WebKit anyway, so it would be hard to make the case they're being harmed…
alwillis 9y ago
Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level. WebKit is a core part of iOS; lots of APIs use it for lots of things. You just can't swap it out for something else without breaking things. Lets not forget the security and power usage issues as well; the last thing iPhone users would want is a rendering engine that wasn't optimized for the hardware and software draining their batteries.
- smarx007 9y ago
  Didn't MS also say that IE is a core part of Windows?
  - alwillis 9y ago
    Microsoft lied and said that Windows wouldn’t work without IE, to justify bundling it with Windows after they signed a decent decree with the US government forbidding them from using their natural monopoly in operating systems as leverage in other markets. WebKit is used by several Apple apps—Mail, iTunes, App Store, Calendar, etc—and thousands of 3rd party apps.
    - shard972 9y ago
      That was during windows XP wasn't it? I'm sure things have changed since those times.
    - wor3q 9y ago
      But the problem is not to stop them from shipping webkit with ios, but to allow other browsers to use their own engines. Do you imagine what would happened if every browser on Windows had to use trident for rendering? Microsoft ended up with 'n' version of xp, which had all shortcuts to IE hidden, and a prompt asking you which browser you want to install and use after installation.
- NightlyDev 9y ago
  You don't have to remove the buggy web engine. The problem is that Apple doesn't allow anyone to create another web engine for iOS. Apple locks users to a really bad browser with no possibility for users to change it.
NightlyDev 9y ago
To be honest, I'm starting to think that Apple is doing this on purpose to earn more money. They are forcing many developers to create native apps instead by locking down iOS and not allowing any decent web engines. Why? Then all payments would have to go through Apple so they can take a cut. Developers must also purchase hardware from Apple to create and test it. Apple is a real asshole! "We have users, and if you want to make an app for our users then you have to purchase a MacBook, an iPhone, license to publish and allow us to take x% of all income." And those who does this helps apple sell more hardware and make the problem bigger. Sure, this might not be the reason even though it adds a lot of income to Apple. The only other possible reason is that the people working on the web engine for iOS are useless people compared to all other teams working on browsers. Long ago we had messages to those who used IE6. What we need now are messages that tell people to throw their iPhone in the thrash, cause it's not like they can use a proper browser...

by tpush 9y ago

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level.

user5994461 9y ago

Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE.

jen20 9y ago
Why? iOS has by most measures less than 50% of the market.
- connorelsea 9y ago
  Even with a low market share Apple could still theoretically be engaging in practices that are anti-consumer, such as disallowing the use of other browser engines. Though, afaik, Apple does not stoop to the levels of Amazon, who removed the Twitch app from Roku platform for absolutely no reason other than to line their pockets with more cash.
  - joshred 9y ago
    Before they purchased it?
    - connorelsea 9y ago
      Nah, after - to make it a "Fire TV Exclusive" app http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/amazon-pulls-twitch-channel-roku/ http://www.cordcuttersnews.com/amazon-pulls-twitch-channel-r...
  - baddox 9y ago
    Aren’t anticompetitive and anti-consumer two completely separate things?
    - connorelsea 9y ago
      Yes, but I would say that anti-competitive behavior is inherently anti-consumer, as the consumer does not benefit from it - and Apple preventing other browser engines is both
  - Someone 9y ago
    Anti-trust is there for cases where society thinks 1) the free market doesn’t work because it is too hard for competition to enter an existing market or for existing competition to dethrone a market leader. _and_ 2) the big player(s) take (too much) advantage of their position by engaging in ‘anti-consumer’ practices. Given the existence of Android, Apple isn’t in position 1. So, do you think (2) alone is sufficient for taking legal action? The common thinking is that the market will take care of it by by bankrupting the company doing it.
    - devit 9y ago
      Android doesn't run iOS apps. Apple has a monopoly on OSes that run iOS apps, OSes that run on iPhones, phones that run iOS and on App Stores that can install iOS apps. They abuse all of them (e.g. the Webkit-only issue for iOS, monopoly pricing on iPhones, censorship in App Store). Conversely e.g. Google has none of these monopolies except for the monopoly in running perfectly apps that require Google Play Services.
      - jhasse 9y ago
        > Apple has a monopoly on OSes that run iOS apps, OSes that run on iPhones, phones that run iOS and on App Stores that can install iOS apps. You could also say that Samsung has a monopoly of smartphones with "SAMSUNG" printed on them.
threeseed 9y ago
1) iOS is not a monopoly. 2) Apple has legitimate technical reasons for not allowing other browser engines (well specifically the JS part). Intent matters.
- riquito 9y ago
  > Apple has legitimate technical reasons for not allowing other browser engines (well specifically the JS part). Intent matters. Oh please... source?
  - pls2halp 9y ago
    1) JavaScript allows for arbitrary code execution 2) Apple’s App Store policies disallow the user from executing arbitrary code I think you can figure this out yourself.
    - toxican 9y ago
      These are excuses, not valid technical reasons.
  - threeseed 9y ago
    Remote execution of code is a very popular attack vector. Apple can negate this almost entirely by controlling JavascriptCore and WebKit and ensuring that their security models e.g. sandbox are tight and well tested. Leaving that up to third parties who may not be so vigilant compromises the security of the entire device.
  - 0x0 9y ago
    Efficient javascript needs to be JIT'ed, but that means your app needs to be granted API access to map writeable memory as executable, which is a security risk they are not willing to grant third party developers. So a third party browser/js engine will likely be quite slow. I guess this would give users of a bad impression of iOS perfomance as a whole then, if other browser engines were allowed and became popular?
    - 9y ago
alwillis 9y ago
Looks like a case for anti trust, just like microsoft had with IE. You must be new around here. ;-) Microsoft used their natural monopoly in operating systems (Windows has 95% marketshare) to force OEMs (HP, Compaq, etc.) to bundle IE with their machines and not Netscape Navigator. Microsoft threaten to cancel their Windows licenses. And later, it decided, against its decent decree with the US government, to bundle IE with Windows, claiming Windows wouldn't function without IE, which was a lie. Perhaps you're not aware that natural monopolies are themselves not illegal; it's using that monopoly to force the market to do things it ordinarily wouldn't in some other area. So… no, there are no antitrust issues regarding web engines on iOS. And of course, Google, Mozilla and others have browsers on the App Store that use WebKit anyway, so it would be hard to make the case they're being harmed…

alwillis 9y ago

Given this it's really a shame that Apple does not allow other browser engines on iOS. Would be a prime opportunity for competition to raise the overall quality level. WebKit is a core part of iOS; lots of APIs use it for lots of things. You just can't swap it out for something else without breaking things. Lets not forget the security and power usage issues as well; the last thing iPhone users would want is a rendering engine that wasn't optimized for the hardware and software draining their batteries.

smarx007 9y ago
Didn't MS also say that IE is a core part of Windows?
- alwillis 9y ago
  Microsoft lied and said that Windows wouldn’t work without IE, to justify bundling it with Windows after they signed a decent decree with the US government forbidding them from using their natural monopoly in operating systems as leverage in other markets. WebKit is used by several Apple apps—Mail, iTunes, App Store, Calendar, etc—and thousands of 3rd party apps.
  - shard972 9y ago
    That was during windows XP wasn't it? I'm sure things have changed since those times.
  - wor3q 9y ago
    But the problem is not to stop them from shipping webkit with ios, but to allow other browsers to use their own engines. Do you imagine what would happened if every browser on Windows had to use trident for rendering? Microsoft ended up with 'n' version of xp, which had all shortcuts to IE hidden, and a prompt asking you which browser you want to install and use after installation.
NightlyDev 9y ago
You don't have to remove the buggy web engine. The problem is that Apple doesn't allow anyone to create another web engine for iOS. Apple locks users to a really bad browser with no possibility for users to change it.

NightlyDev 9y ago

To be honest, I'm starting to think that Apple is doing this on purpose to earn more money. They are forcing many developers to create native apps instead by locking down iOS and not allowing any decent web engines. Why? Then all payments would have to go through Apple so they can take a cut. Developers must also purchase hardware from Apple to create and test it. Apple is a real asshole! "We have users, and if you want to make an app for our users then you have to purchase a MacBook, an iPhone, license to publish and allow us to take x% of all income." And those who does this helps apple sell more hardware and make the problem bigger. Sure, this might not be the reason even though it adds a lot of income to Apple. The only other possible reason is that the people working on the web engine for iOS are useless people compared to all other teams working on browsers. Long ago we had messages to those who used IE6. What we need now are messages that tell people to throw their iPhone in the thrash, cause it's not like they can use a proper browser...