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I stopped playing Clash Royale despite finding it a wonderful game because it's essentially pay to win. I would love to play a game similar to that one where t

I stopped playing Clash Royale despite finding it a wonderful game because it's essentially pay to win. I would love to play a game similar to that one where the odds aren't stacked against the poorest of the players. Where you can play against players who have the same character choices as you.

minimaxir 9y ago
That's the appeal of MOBAs like League of Legends, where all characters are equal and real-world money is only used to buy cosmetics. In the mobile market, Arena of Valor just released in the US and it's surprisingly polished, gives a lot of heroes for free, and isn't aggressive about monetization. (in contrast, Vainglory, an earlier mobile MOBA, is very aggressive about getting you to spend money, including locking a lot of content behind lootboxes)
- throwaway2048 9y ago
  All characters in league of legends are not equal, its less blatantly pay to win than some games, but to argue its only cosmetic is ridiculous.
  - nasmorn 9y ago
    All characters can be unlocked with in game currency. So a poor player can play any character she likes. Just not all of them
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
Steko 9y ago
I've played Clash Royale since global release, most of that time as f2p, and I'd argue it is not remotely p2w: (1) tournaments, challenges, friendly matches are all played at tournament card levels which are quite easy to reach as f2p (and friendly and special challenges level new players up to the tournament levels). (2) in 2v2, by far the most fun game mode for me, card levels are massively less important since there's no ladder. (3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill. (4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges.
- iterati 9y ago
  I played clash for 18 months. You even say yourself that it's p2w: > (3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill. > (4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges. That's p2w. If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. That's what p2w means. Just because there are modes that are not p2w doesn't mean it's not p2w. The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest. Rewards are also increased the higher your ladder ranking makes the p2w aspect even worse. After 18 months I had 1 level 3 legendary with a smattering of level 1s and 2s. It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5), and they were releasing more legendaries and epics than commons and rares further decreasing the odds of being able to level up cards that you use. Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released.
  - Steko 9y ago
    > If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. False, I said that you can get to the top of the ladder without paying although most of the people with the skill are given max decks. If you have top of the ladder skills you will have no trouble grinding tourneys and challenges for tons of free cards and gold. > Just because there are modes that are not p2w You just said yourself it's not p2w. These other game modes absolutely do matter, that's where all the competitive focus of the game is. > The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest... It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5), Legendaries aren't only available as random drops. I've seen the bandit probably a dozen times in the shop. Legendaries also aren't critical or across the board better than other cards, the top 20 cards by ladder win rate at stats royale are all non-legendary and includes 6 commons. > Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released. This seems like cognitive bias, there are also plenty of cards were underpowered on release and had to be buffed, sometimes multiple times, to be competitive (just from legendaries: lumberjack, log, inferno dragon, lava hound, etc.). Balance of new cards isn't perfect, news at 11.

minimaxir 9y ago

That's the appeal of MOBAs like League of Legends, where all characters are equal and real-world money is only used to buy cosmetics. In the mobile market, Arena of Valor just released in the US and it's surprisingly polished, gives a lot of heroes for free, and isn't aggressive about monetization. (in contrast, Vainglory, an earlier mobile MOBA, is very aggressive about getting you to spend money, including locking a lot of content behind lootboxes)

throwaway2048 9y ago
All characters in league of legends are not equal, its less blatantly pay to win than some games, but to argue its only cosmetic is ridiculous.
- nasmorn 9y ago
  All characters can be unlocked with in game currency. So a poor player can play any character she likes. Just not all of them
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

Steko 9y ago

I've played Clash Royale since global release, most of that time as f2p, and I'd argue it is not remotely p2w: (1) tournaments, challenges, friendly matches are all played at tournament card levels which are quite easy to reach as f2p (and friendly and special challenges level new players up to the tournament levels). (2) in 2v2, by far the most fun game mode for me, card levels are massively less important since there's no ladder. (3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill. (4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges.

iterati 9y ago
I played clash for 18 months. You even say yourself that it's p2w: > (3) the 1v1 ladder is not a pure skill matchup but still finds everyone a range where they have essentially a 50% win rate based on a combination of progress and skill. > (4) yes the top of the ladder players have almost all spent a lot of money but most of the playerbase of any game isn't serious about being on the very top of the leaderboard. A smaller factor is that the most talented f2p players are sponsored with max decks and stop grinding f2p challenges. That's p2w. If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. That's what p2w means. Just because there are modes that are not p2w doesn't mean it's not p2w. The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest. Rewards are also increased the higher your ladder ranking makes the p2w aspect even worse. After 18 months I had 1 level 3 legendary with a smattering of level 1s and 2s. It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5), and they were releasing more legendaries and epics than commons and rares further decreasing the odds of being able to level up cards that you use. Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released.
- Steko 9y ago
  > If you can't get to the top of the ladder without spending money, it's p2w. False, I said that you can get to the top of the ladder without paying although most of the people with the skill are given max decks. If you have top of the ladder skills you will have no trouble grinding tourneys and challenges for tons of free cards and gold. > Just because there are modes that are not p2w You just said yourself it's not p2w. These other game modes absolutely do matter, that's where all the competitive focus of the game is. > The drop rate of legenadaries is so low it took me ~5 months to get a bandit from a free chest... It would take me a few more YEARS to get one to max (level 5), Legendaries aren't only available as random drops. I've seen the bandit probably a dozen times in the shop. Legendaries also aren't critical or across the board better than other cards, the top 20 cards by ladder win rate at stats royale are all non-legendary and includes 6 commons. > Also, it wasn't uncommon for newly released cards to be more powerful on ladder than their counterparts (executioner and night witch are big examples), encouraging people to level them up for money, before nerfing said cards when they became more common or other cards were being released. This seems like cognitive bias, there are also plenty of cards were underpowered on release and had to be buffed, sometimes multiple times, to be competitive (just from legendaries: lumberjack, log, inferno dragon, lava hound, etc.). Balance of new cards isn't perfect, news at 11.