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The article makes a passing mention to the British NHS which is universally loved by everyone in the UK. Why do so many Americans object to universal health ca
by swarnie_ 9y ago
The article makes a passing mention to the British NHS which is universally loved by everyone in the UK.
Why do so many Americans object to universal health care yet complain about insurance premiums? Its something I've never understood as an outside observer.
- w0m 9y agothe tyranny of 'freedom'
- johndevor 9y agoTry tyranny of socialism is far, far worse. Nothing is perfect and imagining it can be will get people killed (Russia, Venezuela, China, Cuba, etc.). Individual rights are what makes the West successful compared to the rest of the world.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> Individual rights are what makes the West successful compared to the rest of the world. We're talking about Western-style democratic socialism, as found in Sweden, Norway, Germany, England, etc. here. Terrifying totalitarian hellholes they're not.
- libertyEQ 9y agoI agree with what you wrote, but why does the US have be the same as those countries? Why can't there be a variety of implementations of government such that different humans can choose different situations for their own needs? I'd still like to see Cuba change to a fully democratic communist state, for example.
- Koshkin 9y ago> democratic communist state I wonder if this is not an oxymoron. In my view, democracy means (a lot of) politics, while communism means no or very little politics (in a true sense of the word).
- beagle3 9y agoIt shouldn’t and it doesn’t. But when you discover that a system has way better objective outcomes, e.g. in the case of drug policy or healthcare policy, it’s a shame not to upgrade to a similar system. Really, the US has a lot of good systems, but healthcare isn’t one of them.
- Koshkin 9y agoTo be fair, totalitarian regimes are not always socialist, especially the outright fascist ones.
- johndevor 9y agoWhat are some examples?
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_totalitarian_regimes#Nationalist_totalitarian_states https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_totalitarian_regimes#N... Just scroll down.
- johndevor 9y agoWhat do you think will happen when these countries massive debts come due? I don't think they'll be peaceful then. They are living on the backs of their unborn children right now.
- ceejayoz 9y agoThese debts come due all the time. The US has one of the highest debt-to-GDP ratios of the OECD. All of the countries I mentioned have lower debt than we do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_de...
- Koshkin 9y agoThe socialism in Sweden has not killed anyone.
- fatwa 9y agoIt's raped a few, though.
- johndevor 9y agoNot yet, you mean.
- SketchySeaBeast 9y agoAt the moment the American quality of life is objective worse. The American healthcare system of today is killing people or bankrupting them, but Sweden's quality may one day decline to American levels, so that's a strong enough argument to say it's the worse choice?
- luck_fenovo 9y agoCapitalism + welfare does not equal socialism.
- Koshkin 9y agoWell, then "state capitalism" shouldn't, either.
- notfromhere 9y agoWhy are we pretending its a binary choice?
- deleted 9y ago[deleted]
- johndevor 9y ago>universally loved by everyone I don't think something can be universally loved. There are many stories of long waiting times and people going overseas for private healthcare. People like private healthcare because it aligns with America's love of freedom - which includes the freedom to fail.
- swarnie_ 9y ago>universally loved by everyone Maybe a little strong on my part. Asked "would you scrap the NHS?" to randoms on the street i bet you would get a very strong no vote.
- johndevor 9y agoIs such a system sustainable though? Isn't England in a massive hole of debt? And if that debt comes due, what would happen to the quality of the NHS?
- maxxxxx 9y agoDon't forget that the US spends by far the most per capita on health care world wide. The NHS saves money.
- beagle3 9y agoAlmost Every western country is in a massive hole of debt, the us included. I think it is more sustainable than other systems, especially the one practiced in the US. Also, please note than in the US, public spending on health is already huge, and there’s a huge private spending as well - iirc about 20% of us GDP is spent on healthcare, which is double any other western country, and with worse results to boot. It is already unsustainable.
- ceejayoz 9y ago> Isn't England in a massive hole of debt? The UK has a lower debt-to-GDP ratio than the US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_de... Their debt ratio is predicted to slightly lower by 2022, while ours is expected to continue to increase. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gross_government_debt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_future_gr...
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y agoI think it has to do with how easy it is to think about. I really believe there are a lot of people on the right whose implicit preference is to pay $10000/yr for healthcare to a private entity rather than $5000/yr to the government. When I get a tax bill the numbers are right there in black, this is how much was stolen from me. When I get any other sort of bill how much was 'stolen' is a portion but I have no idea how much so I basically write off the whole amount as necessary. It's probably the result of cold-war propaganda that seems to have never died off.
- rhino369 9y agoOne thing to consider is that it’s very unlikely America could actually cut half of all costs by simply going universal. We’d have to ration care and implement price controls. Who knows if that is even politically viable. And even we could reduce it by half, the only politically viable method of funding is a highly progressive tax. People on hacker news would likely pay 20k a year and the average person would pay 2,500 or less.
- frgtpsswrdlame 9y ago>One thing to consider is that it’s very unlikely America could actually cut half of all costs by simply going universal. It was just an example, but it's pretty clear that costs would be cut. >We’d have to ration care and implement price controls. Who knows if that is even politically viable. We already ration care, we just do it by how much money you have. Price controls? Pretty politically viable, just march some affected people up on stage. Hell you don't even need price controls, just make overseas drug importing legal. Right now we're a totally captive market, that's why they charge so much. >And even we could reduce it by half, the only politically viable method of funding is a highly progressive tax. Okay? Sounds fine to me. >People on hacker news would likely pay 20k a year and the average person would pay 2,500 or less. I mean that's how progressive taxes work and I don't have a problem with it, although your numbers are obviously pulled straight from your ass.
- kgwgk 9y ago
- ceejayoz 9y agoMany Americans are insulated from the actual cost of their healthcare via employer-provided insurance. I used to pay like $30/month when working for a major organization, but purchasing directly on the exchanges runs my family $2,000/month. The underlying costs are likely pretty similar, and the difference was likely factored into my salary, but it results in sticker shock that people often blame on "Obamacare".
- snarfy 9y agoThe most common belief is that universal health care is a 'hand out' to others taken from their own pockets.
- fatwa 9y agoWell, it is.
- swarnie_ 9y agoI'm happy paying for schools despite having no children because it benefit society as a whole. Can we not apply the same thinking here?
- fatwa 9y agoThat was not the point. The point is that universal healthcare is taking money from my pocket and giving it to someone else.
- maxxxxx 9y agoIf you ever have a serious illness or an accident money will be taken out of someone's pocket and given to you. Unless you don't have insurance and refuse treatment.
- dmode 9y agoYou can qualify everything as a "handout" then. Like private car insurance, which is taking money from you and paying to a driver who had an accident.
- Mouse47 9y agoMaybe I'm missing the point too, but can't that description be applied to insurance itself? So what's your point?
- ceejayoz 9y agoIt's not. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OECD_health_expenditure_per_capita_by_country.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OECD_health_expenditure_p... We spend about the same as other OECD countries in public healthcare funding, plus we spend a bunch more privately, for an overall healthcare spend that's the highest per-capita in the world, and outcomes that aren't as good.
- kgwgk 9y ago« More people are unhappy with the NHS than satisfied for the first time in a poll of the public run by Britain’s doctors, and 70% say they think the health service is going in the wrong direction. » https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/26/uk-public-are-more-dissatisfied-than-ever-with-nhs-poll-shows https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/jun/26/uk-public-ar...
- ceejayoz 9y agohttps://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-privatisation-nhs-official-data-owen-smith-outsourcing https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/aug/15/creeping-pri... > Department of Health (DH) figures show that the amount of its funding that has gone to “independent sector providers” more than doubled from £4.1bn in 2009-10, Labour’s last year in power, to £8.7bn in 2015-16. > Slow-release privatisation has also seen the percentage of the DH budget finding its way into private hands rising from 4% in 2009-10 to 8% in the last financial year. That "wrong direction" poll may well reflect concern over the slow privatization of the NHS described here.
- ivanbakel 9y agoAs the other reply sources, the "wrong direction" the public thinks the service is going in is increased privatisation as a result of austerity measures, typically. This is also why dissatisfaction is happening "for the first time" - up until now, the standard of national healthcare has been high, to an internationally-recognised extent.
- miketery 9y agoI presume because they are under the impression that universal healthcare would be worse. Often Canadian health care is cited in America as an example of a crappy system because some Canadians will travel to the US for surgeries. Most of it is unfounded, takes anecdotes, and paints broad strokes. As opposed to looking at it as a whole, and doesn't consider the underlying costs. It would be nice if we could have a pragmatic conversation about it. The GDP portion that the US spends on public health care (Medicaid, medicare) is already comparable to the total portion other nations spend on universal healthcare. So insurance is just systemic robbery, its private yet mandatory spending. Costs are high as a result of paying for useless insurance infrastructure. Finally Americans are vey independent, as in I'll make my own keep and provide for my family, I don't want to rely on the state.
- creaghpatr 9y agoCorrect. I work in healthcare finance, and can guarantee you that a "Medicare for all" system would bankrupt all US Healthcare providers almost instantly. The real question is: why don't Americans understand how much they are already paying for other people's healthcare? If you get treatment at a provider that receives DSP reimbursements, you are not only paying for medicare but paying again out of pocket to subsidize that hospital for providing financially unsustainable medicare treatments. We're all waiting for California to prove that Universal Healthcare is possible at scale in the US. Smart money isn't holding their breath though- lawmakers know it would be career suicide to give them what they wish for.
- the_cat_kittles 9y agoi think lots of people in america view politics as a sport and root for their team, irrespective of its policies. and the republicans have been steered against single payer or other healtcare reforms, so their fans all follow their lead, simple as that.
- frandroid 9y agoThere's an entire class of super-rich people which have been working at subverting the common good and have richly bought congressmen and newspapers to propagandize about the supposedly inherent superiority of individualism. This is at the root of the settler colonialist agricultural society but has been transformed and multiplied a thousandfold by corporations which have, ironically, built their early wealth on the European reconstruction. Read Manufacturing Consent for the rest. :)
- jpea 9y agoThe Americans that reject it do so because of a lack of education. The educated classes generally don't draw a line in the sand on most things, regardless of where you live in the world. The uneducated have opinions that are distorted because they accept whatever reality is fed to them by the side they prefer to align their views with.
- ep103 9y agoThis is a two part answer. 1) The historical answer until Obama's administration: They hear that it is called Socialized Healthcare. Socialized is a derivative of "Socialism". Not taking into account the myths about American Exceptionalism mentioned in the article (which are very valid), for many, many Americans Socialism = Stalinism. Then they turn on the TV, and see health industry funded politicians selectively pointing out the worst aspects of socialized healthcare, and the best parts of the capitalist model (and if you can afford access, the American model has some great aspects). That's usually enough for most people to think that ultimately socialized healthcare doesn't actually work, even if it wasn't associated with a tyrant who's successors threatened most of the living population with nuclear annihilation. So, given the proposition of a "non-working" healthcare system that is associated with mass murder, Americans see no other choice than in the healthcare system that they have. Whereupon they take a strong pride in the fact that they were able to achieve their own level of care. An: I worked hard to get my healthcare, it is part of my status, and now you want to devalue what I had to work for by giving it to everybody for free?, mentality takes hold. And if all of that doesn't work to block the idea, the health insurance lobby simply ensures that media and politicans talk as IF the above was all true. Because the second half of this question is that since Obama's administration, 60% of Americans DO believe it is the responsibility of the federal government to provide healthcare to Americans. But if you watch Republican aligned media, they will simply act as if the majority of the populace is still opposed to healthcare because of the old story above. The vast majority of Americans don't have access to polling data, and naively and incorrectly assume that the average of their friends and media sources is representative of the viewpoints of the rest of the country.