5 ms·

I listened to a lot of US gov speaking on the subject past 2 days... but all I hear is "we believe", "we think", "we know"... without a shred of evidence! This

I listened to a lot of US gov speaking on the subject past 2 days... but all I hear is "we believe", "we think", "we know"... without a shred of evidence! This whole story only missed Secretary of State Colin Powell holding a model vial of anthrax and we could roll tanks onto North Korean soil already!

mc32 9y ago
I don't think this will be used as an excuse to enter NK. They have provided way more 'casus belli' than some "cyber". They are developing nukes in contravention to the no-nuke proliferation agreement. They have flown missiles over countries, they have kidnapped foreign citizens, they are starving their own people and manage concentration camps. The "cyber" stuff pales in comparison to the other reasons.
- EGreg 9y ago
  Have they ever signed this agreement? I am less concerned about ICBMs and more concerned about Tactical Nuclear Devices falling into the wrong hands. If the government of North Korea falls or weakens they could still fall into the wrong hands. (Same goes for Pakistan etc.) And even if the government doesn't fall, they've already shown a willingness to help others get nukes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
  - mc32 9y ago
    Yes, they signed and were part of the NPT and then they unilaterally withdrew.[1] But they also are not signatories to the Geneva convention, but we still think they should not torture their own people. [1]https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron
    - LV-426 9y ago
      > But they also are not signatories to the Geneva convention Where are you getting this from? According to Wikipedia, every member of the UN is a party the GC, and North Korea has additionally ratified protocol I, something the USA refuses to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_...
  - Simon_says 9y ago
    North Korea is already the wrong hands for tactical nukes. They may not be the worst hands; that prize goes to religious nuts who believe they're on a mission from God and destined for paradise. But it's still pretty bad.
  - jermaustin1 9y ago
    What Government would take over NK that doesn't already have nuclear capabilities? Pakistan is a different beast. I'm not an expert on the middle east by any means, but it seems to me a lot of nations around it could theoretically start the fight. I believe that would cause a US/Indian/China intervention, if not on behalf of Pakistan (in the case of Chinese and Indian territorial disputes), then in defense of their own interests in the region (the territory).
- vivaforever 9y ago
  so, it's time for US to bring justice to NK? My conspiracy theory is that US directed all those hacking incidents and fabricate to others.
jgrahamc 9y ago
NK != North Korea NK == Naughty Kids
nikcub 9y ago
There is a lot of independent analysis pointing at North Korea[0][1][2][3] The infosec industry are extremely skeptical of attribution especially coming from government - it took a long time for a higher-certainty attribution to be established in the Sony and Bangladesh reserve bank cases, and there are still open cases of attribution in other incidents Along with technical evidence, Wannacry also fits the North Korea m.o of financial incentive but also incentive to sow chaos[12], as well as how their attackers operate in Singapore and China and outsource some components. On the contrary there is little to no evidence pointing anywhere else - meaning the second best probability of attribution for Wannacry is much further down the list. The key difference there is that during the Iraq invasion there was zero corroborative evidence, the actual weapons inspectors said there was no evidence. Further - the USA doesn't need a made-up pretext for war with North Korea. They're technically still at war and North Korea are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions and treaties (they routed around the UN for Iraq) North Korea has sunk a ship[4], downed an airliner[5], attacked South Korean islands[6], tested nuclear weapons, developed a missile program, fired across the DMZ[7] (as recently again as today[8]), assassinated foreigners on foreign soil[9], been caught attempting to sell weapons of mass destruction[10], sold arms to Syria and others in violation of sanctions[11] and more. Either one of those is a stronger and not made-up pretext for an act of war - and one that would have much broader support than Iraq ever did. [0] https://twitter.com/neelmehta/status/864164081116225536?lang=en https://twitter.com/neelmehta/status/864164081116225536?lang... [1] https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-attacks-show-strong-links-lazarus-group https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-a... [2] https://blog.comae.io/wannacry-links-to-lazarus-group-dcea72c99d2d https://blog.comae.io/wannacry-links-to-lazarus-group-dcea72... [3] https://securelist.com/wannacry-and-lazarus-group-the-missing-link/78431/ https://securelist.com/wannacry-and-lazarus-group-the-missin... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858 [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong [7] http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/21/asia/north-korea-defector/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/21/asia/north-korea-defector/... [8] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42435798 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42435798 [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-nam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-nam [10] http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/alleged-north-korean-agent-arrested-in-sydney-charged-with-trying-to-arrange-sale-of-missile-technology-20171217-h0659d.html http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/alleged-north-korean-agent-arreste... [11] https://qz.com/962995/the-war-in-syria-has-been-great-for-north-korea/ https://qz.com/962995/the-war-in-syria-has-been-great-for-no... [12] https://securelist.com/lazarus-under-the-hood/77908/ https://securelist.com/lazarus-under-the-hood/77908/

mc32 9y ago

I don't think this will be used as an excuse to enter NK. They have provided way more 'casus belli' than some "cyber". They are developing nukes in contravention to the no-nuke proliferation agreement. They have flown missiles over countries, they have kidnapped foreign citizens, they are starving their own people and manage concentration camps. The "cyber" stuff pales in comparison to the other reasons.

EGreg 9y ago
Have they ever signed this agreement? I am less concerned about ICBMs and more concerned about Tactical Nuclear Devices falling into the wrong hands. If the government of North Korea falls or weakens they could still fall into the wrong hands. (Same goes for Pakistan etc.) And even if the government doesn't fall, they've already shown a willingness to help others get nukes: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Orchard
- mc32 9y ago
  Yes, they signed and were part of the NPT and then they unilaterally withdrew.[1] But they also are not signatories to the Geneva convention, but we still think they should not torture their own people. [1]https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron https://www.armscontrol.org/factsheets/dprkchron
  - LV-426 9y ago
    > But they also are not signatories to the Geneva convention Where are you getting this from? According to Wikipedia, every member of the UN is a party the GC, and North Korea has additionally ratified protocol I, something the USA refuses to do. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_Conventions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_parties_to_the_Geneva_...
- Simon_says 9y ago
  North Korea is already the wrong hands for tactical nukes. They may not be the worst hands; that prize goes to religious nuts who believe they're on a mission from God and destined for paradise. But it's still pretty bad.
- jermaustin1 9y ago
  What Government would take over NK that doesn't already have nuclear capabilities? Pakistan is a different beast. I'm not an expert on the middle east by any means, but it seems to me a lot of nations around it could theoretically start the fight. I believe that would cause a US/Indian/China intervention, if not on behalf of Pakistan (in the case of Chinese and Indian territorial disputes), then in defense of their own interests in the region (the territory).
vivaforever 9y ago
so, it's time for US to bring justice to NK? My conspiracy theory is that US directed all those hacking incidents and fabricate to others.

jgrahamc 9y ago

NK != North Korea NK == Naughty Kids

nikcub 9y ago

There is a lot of independent analysis pointing at North Korea[0][1][2][3] The infosec industry are extremely skeptical of attribution especially coming from government - it took a long time for a higher-certainty attribution to be established in the Sony and Bangladesh reserve bank cases, and there are still open cases of attribution in other incidents Along with technical evidence, Wannacry also fits the North Korea m.o of financial incentive but also incentive to sow chaos[12], as well as how their attackers operate in Singapore and China and outsource some components. On the contrary there is little to no evidence pointing anywhere else - meaning the second best probability of attribution for Wannacry is much further down the list. The key difference there is that during the Iraq invasion there was zero corroborative evidence, the actual weapons inspectors said there was no evidence. Further - the USA doesn't need a made-up pretext for war with North Korea. They're technically still at war and North Korea are in violation of UN Security Council resolutions and treaties (they routed around the UN for Iraq) North Korea has sunk a ship[4], downed an airliner[5], attacked South Korean islands[6], tested nuclear weapons, developed a missile program, fired across the DMZ[7] (as recently again as today[8]), assassinated foreigners on foreign soil[9], been caught attempting to sell weapons of mass destruction[10], sold arms to Syria and others in violation of sanctions[11] and more. Either one of those is a stronger and not made-up pretext for an act of war - and one that would have much broader support than Iraq ever did. [0] https://twitter.com/neelmehta/status/864164081116225536?lang=en https://twitter.com/neelmehta/status/864164081116225536?lang... [1] https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-attacks-show-strong-links-lazarus-group https://www.symantec.com/connect/blogs/wannacry-ransomware-a... [2] https://blog.comae.io/wannacry-links-to-lazarus-group-dcea72c99d2d https://blog.comae.io/wannacry-links-to-lazarus-group-dcea72... [3] https://securelist.com/wannacry-and-lazarus-group-the-missing-link/78431/ https://securelist.com/wannacry-and-lazarus-group-the-missin... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ROKS_Cheonan_sinking [5] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_Air_Flight_858 [6] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombardment_of_Yeonpyeong [7] http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/21/asia/north-korea-defector/index.html http://edition.cnn.com/2017/11/21/asia/north-korea-defector/... [8] http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42435798 http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-42435798 [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-nam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Jong-nam [10] http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/alleged-north-korean-agent-arrested-in-sydney-charged-with-trying-to-arrange-sale-of-missile-technology-20171217-h0659d.html http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/alleged-north-korean-agent-arreste... [11] https://qz.com/962995/the-war-in-syria-has-been-great-for-north-korea/ https://qz.com/962995/the-war-in-syria-has-been-great-for-no... [12] https://securelist.com/lazarus-under-the-hood/77908/ https://securelist.com/lazarus-under-the-hood/77908/