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Microsoft can be bad, but I think Oracle is run on pure spite. According to legend (I wasn't actually there - this is secondhand, so do take with a grain of sa

Microsoft can be bad, but I think Oracle is run on pure spite. According to legend (I wasn't actually there - this is secondhand, so do take with a grain of salt), they tried to convince a company I worked with previously that they needed an additional license for the server that processed backups. No Oracle client or server installed; the logs were pushed via ssh. When they balked, Oracle tried to increase the price two more times. It was apparently great motivation to move to MySQL. Maybe that was just one particularly bad rep, but I don't think I've gone through a single year of my career without hearing something absurd about them.

kbenson 9y ago
Bryan Cantrill says it best, I think[1]: "If you had to explain the Nazis to someone who had never heard of WWII but was an oracle customer, there's a very good chance you would actually explain the Nazis as an Oracle allegory." There are more choice quotes in someone else's HN comment about Bryan Cantrill on Oracle.[2] I highly recommend any talk you can find of Bryan Cantrill. A wonderful mix of industry history and great delivery. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fvDDPaIoY&t=24m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fvDDPaIoY&t=24m35s 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10040429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10040429
- kev009 9y ago
  That's chic rhetoric to appeal to engineers that can see the technical value they snubbed intentionally and accidentally in a variety of acquisitions, and just comical to the layman as an extremest view of Ellison's galactic ego quest, but all Oracle really is is an average integration/systems engineering company with one of the best sales and delivery vehicles out in front. They are pretty much nonentities when it comes to new product development, yet they rake in jobs by doing the legwork to structure and execute the deals. I'd go as far as saying they have more in common with a consulting company like Accenture than any tech company despite a ton of marketing and a small amount of product development to try and convince the buyer otherwise. There's something to be learned here for the intended audience of this site, and it doesn't involve genocidal hyperbole. Sales and delivery are supreme.
  - kbenson 9y ago
    While much of what you say is true, it fails to get at the extent to which they not only forego innovation, but actually remove innovation from the general market by buying the companies/patents in question and then making them exclusive to the Oracle ecosystem. It's mercenary rent seeking to a degree that isn't often seen elsewhere, and as such we all suffer for it. It's not pure capitalism, which would provide mechanisms for dealing with this, and it's not too much regulation, which could also prevent this, it's just the right amount of both that allows Oracle to play them against each other to game the system.
  - PeterisP 9y ago
    They may have decent initial sales, but their delivery sucks; the whole point of this discussion is that there are a lot of customers who have been sold but are absolutely not satisfied with what they're getting. Also, their (re)licensing process for existing customers pretty much amounts to extortion. You better be really sure about how much it would take to rewrite your systems without Oracle, have a plan how it would be done, and advertise it to them - because as soon as they'll feel a lock-in, prepare to open the wallet for ridiculous sums for trifling things that you've been doing for years for free, but now their lawyers can find an weird interpretation where that requires extra licenses; they don't even attempt to increase the revenue by providing some extra value or service for you but simply by applying their muscle.
coredog64 9y ago
My favorite memory from a previous employer was the day that Oracle called back with the results of their licensing audit. I sat outside the door of the CIO's office. He wasn't expecting anything shocking and so left the door open during the call. Oracle had previously told us that we wouldn't have to pay for licenses for non-prod instances. When they went back on that promise, the CIO said (well, shouted) "Okay, fine! Tell me how much you're going to fuck me. As soon as you're done with that, I'll fuck you right back by throwing Oracle out of my datacenter!"
ineedasername 9y ago
My story with the big O stems from one of their ERP systems. It got pretty tangled, but here's the 2-minute version: A contract was signed and during early implementation Oracle EOL'ed a significant module with a replacement that was planned but did not exist. Followed by attempts to charge us for their development of the replacement which, again, had been a pre-paid module in their off-the-shelf ERP. Already paid for. That didn't fly, but later the replacement lacked key features: A web-facing portion collected information. We demo, it works, we ask where data processing folks view it in the forms app... crickets. Conversation ensues: O: "It's in the database" Me: Sure, but where do users view it when collating the other information? O: "Well, a dba can get to it" Me: Okay, but when we go live, will it show up as a another tab in a form or...? O: "We've completed our build of this feature" Me: Hold on, collecting & processing this data is a critical and contractually itemized deliverable. You have developed half of that deliverable. O: "We've completed out build of this feature" I was probably fortunate that my CIO was there, and took over at that point. A few weeks later, Oracle walked off the job. There had been delays in a modules I wasn't involved with, and Oracle wanted more money. It was a fixed-price contract, and we wouldn't re-open negotiation on a signed contract already multiple milestones in on its payment schedule. Oracle walked. Literally gone, no word, no message, just dozens of people that were there on Tuesday, gone on Wednesday. That's Oracle.
- TheDauthi 9y ago
  Interesting that you mention their ERP systems. One of the projects I'm working with right now has been considering integrating with one, as well. Last week, our CTO put together a big list of pros and cons between the different possible integrations for discussion. The top of the list of cons was "Oracle owns them".

kbenson 9y ago

Bryan Cantrill says it best, I think[1]: "If you had to explain the Nazis to someone who had never heard of WWII but was an oracle customer, there's a very good chance you would actually explain the Nazis as an Oracle allegory." There are more choice quotes in someone else's HN comment about Bryan Cantrill on Oracle.[2] I highly recommend any talk you can find of Bryan Cantrill. A wonderful mix of industry history and great delivery. 1: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fvDDPaIoY&t=24m35s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79fvDDPaIoY&t=24m35s 2: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10040429 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10040429

kev009 9y ago
That's chic rhetoric to appeal to engineers that can see the technical value they snubbed intentionally and accidentally in a variety of acquisitions, and just comical to the layman as an extremest view of Ellison's galactic ego quest, but all Oracle really is is an average integration/systems engineering company with one of the best sales and delivery vehicles out in front. They are pretty much nonentities when it comes to new product development, yet they rake in jobs by doing the legwork to structure and execute the deals. I'd go as far as saying they have more in common with a consulting company like Accenture than any tech company despite a ton of marketing and a small amount of product development to try and convince the buyer otherwise. There's something to be learned here for the intended audience of this site, and it doesn't involve genocidal hyperbole. Sales and delivery are supreme.
- kbenson 9y ago
  While much of what you say is true, it fails to get at the extent to which they not only forego innovation, but actually remove innovation from the general market by buying the companies/patents in question and then making them exclusive to the Oracle ecosystem. It's mercenary rent seeking to a degree that isn't often seen elsewhere, and as such we all suffer for it. It's not pure capitalism, which would provide mechanisms for dealing with this, and it's not too much regulation, which could also prevent this, it's just the right amount of both that allows Oracle to play them against each other to game the system.
- PeterisP 9y ago
  They may have decent initial sales, but their delivery sucks; the whole point of this discussion is that there are a lot of customers who have been sold but are absolutely not satisfied with what they're getting. Also, their (re)licensing process for existing customers pretty much amounts to extortion. You better be really sure about how much it would take to rewrite your systems without Oracle, have a plan how it would be done, and advertise it to them - because as soon as they'll feel a lock-in, prepare to open the wallet for ridiculous sums for trifling things that you've been doing for years for free, but now their lawyers can find an weird interpretation where that requires extra licenses; they don't even attempt to increase the revenue by providing some extra value or service for you but simply by applying their muscle.

coredog64 9y ago

My favorite memory from a previous employer was the day that Oracle called back with the results of their licensing audit. I sat outside the door of the CIO's office. He wasn't expecting anything shocking and so left the door open during the call. Oracle had previously told us that we wouldn't have to pay for licenses for non-prod instances. When they went back on that promise, the CIO said (well, shouted) "Okay, fine! Tell me how much you're going to fuck me. As soon as you're done with that, I'll fuck you right back by throwing Oracle out of my datacenter!"

ineedasername 9y ago

My story with the big O stems from one of their ERP systems. It got pretty tangled, but here's the 2-minute version: A contract was signed and during early implementation Oracle EOL'ed a significant module with a replacement that was planned but did not exist. Followed by attempts to charge us for their development of the replacement which, again, had been a pre-paid module in their off-the-shelf ERP. Already paid for. That didn't fly, but later the replacement lacked key features: A web-facing portion collected information. We demo, it works, we ask where data processing folks view it in the forms app... crickets. Conversation ensues: O: "It's in the database" Me: Sure, but where do users view it when collating the other information? O: "Well, a dba can get to it" Me: Okay, but when we go live, will it show up as a another tab in a form or...? O: "We've completed our build of this feature" Me: Hold on, collecting & processing this data is a critical and contractually itemized deliverable. You have developed half of that deliverable. O: "We've completed out build of this feature" I was probably fortunate that my CIO was there, and took over at that point. A few weeks later, Oracle walked off the job. There had been delays in a modules I wasn't involved with, and Oracle wanted more money. It was a fixed-price contract, and we wouldn't re-open negotiation on a signed contract already multiple milestones in on its payment schedule. Oracle walked. Literally gone, no word, no message, just dozens of people that were there on Tuesday, gone on Wednesday. That's Oracle.

TheDauthi 9y ago
Interesting that you mention their ERP systems. One of the projects I'm working with right now has been considering integrating with one, as well. Last week, our CTO put together a big list of pros and cons between the different possible integrations for discussion. The top of the list of cons was "Oracle owns them".