6 ms·

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?

015UUZn8aEvW 9y ago
I know the local pay scale pretty well. He was out of work for a while, and he definitely would have taken a salary equivalent to what I was making.
jorgen123 9y ago
> He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? That is an assumption that may be invalid. Everybody is in their own private situation. Your assumption will be true for many but not for all. Many older folks may not need a top salary anymore and will take an average income for the pleasure of working with other fine people and doing interesting things. At some point in your life the career ladder will be less important than quality of life.
Clubber 9y ago
>He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? So, the only way that is even in the realm of possibility is if the kid was making $30K and the greybeard was making $300K. That's another benefit of greybeards: you get more bang for the buck simply because of the way salaries scale vs. performance that comes with good experience.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range. Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    Still not realistic. Assuming an entry level dev in sv is making 100k, most 50 year old devs are not making $500k. More like 50% more or at most twice as much.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      The norm is to double or triple salary between graduation and much experience. Remember that costs is more than just salary. In SF/NYC, juniors can start under 100k, seniors can go over 300k. Either number could go either way, let's not argue about who got what. The point is, there is a LARGE multiplier. I recall one friend in London, in a junior position. Left his company because of bad conditions and bad pay. One of his last assignment was to interview some possible replacements. There was one senior guy 20+ years of experience that was great, the company made an offer for around double his own salary. Do you know what happened? The guy declined. Guess what we found out later? He joined another company that offered him around three times that double. Young folks don't realize how expensive experienced folks can be.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        So 10x to 5x to 3x, which isn't really a large multiplier. Also, a guy worth $300K is a "large multiplier" more valuable than 3 entry level juniors at $100K.
        shard 9y ago
        3x the double gives 6x.
        user5994461 9y ago
        Yes and that's ignoring the compensation in bonus/RSU/healthcare.
    - talmand 9y ago
      I would say from my experience that I could be making three times that of a junior developer at their first job, in my area. But I would not say that I am making twice that of someone with half my experience. Someone that's just five years behind me is pretty much making what I'm making. This notion that experienced developers, as a whole in the industry, are making x times more than junior developers is nonsense. Utter nonsense spoken by people who have no idea of what they're talking about. It's true you can find outliers for that kind of thing, and I'm willing to bet they are specialty cases. Early in my career I would get huge jumps in pay when I proved myself at a project. Almost fifteen years into this career and I don't get those huge jumps in pay anymore after a successful project. Not because I'm not deserving of the praise, but I'm already paid well to deliver based on my experience. A junior succeeds and gets a raise; a senior succeeds and moves on to the next project. Could I get one of these mythical 300k jobs? I know I can. I'm willing to bet I could snag a 500k job if I pushed myself. But that would require sacrifices I'm not willing to make, give up hobbies that I enjoy, and live in a city I really don't care for. A city that would eat up the extra income anyway. I'm more than happy with my current job that pays well and I get to mentor juniors every day, which I enjoy.
nhebb 9y ago
As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?
- user5994461 9y ago
  A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime. They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to. That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price. Last but not least there is the question of what is premium wage. In London for instance, a lot of folks over 30 moved to contracting where they can charge a good daily rate, without the hassle of whiteboard interview, overtime or politics. You'll see many companies (see the HN who is hiring) allegedly struggling to recruit at their great wages, but the truth is that employees have moved out to greener pastures for twice the money.
  - nhebb 9y ago
    > A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. I must travel in lowly circles.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      I suppose the distribution is extreme on both sides. Either you accumulated assets from early on and you're golden, or you're still struggling with rent and no pension in sight.
      - Balgair 9y ago
        Um, what? Like, cashflow at 50 with 3 kids is important. Yeah, you've saved for retirement at ~65ish, but you have 2 kids in college with one on the way up, plus a mortgage, plus just regular life stuff. That's not an unreasonable scenario at all. Like, do you live in a first world nation? Honestly, the paradigm changes a lot in the 3rd world and your confusion would be more appropriate in Chad or something. (In Chad, average age of first birth is 18, so you'd reasonably be a grand parent by 50, plus cost of living is very low)
coding123 9y ago
In my experience that kind of pay differential exists in two places: Pakistan - US or Intern - Not intern. All other roles for different ages I've ever seen has been based on experience and not age, and at the companies I've been that experience is only about 30-50% higher at the worst.
- user5994461 9y ago
  At most companies I've seen, in a single team, two people doing the same thing with a similar amount of experience can have a difference of pay of double.
  - brepl 9y ago
    Why is this getting downvoted?
  - coding123 9y ago
    This is absolutely true- a two, three or four person team where they all have similar skills, similar ideas of good coding practices and a tight-knit method of idea sharing can blast through code and get things done in 24 hours that I've seen distributed teams of 15 in Pakistan, Mexico and India perform in 60-180 days. (In this specific case I am thinking of building out an MPI statistical patient matching). I'm not saying that kind of skill isn't found in those countries - but I'm specifically talking about a US company trying to do a software project like that. I'm fully aware a team in Pakistan that can plan and perform really well locally when the idea and project is thought of in Pakistan.
OliverJones 9y ago
I'm a developer in my sixties. I guess I'm what most HN readers would call an "old white guy." I like working as a developer, and I do a decent job of it. I'm drawing the same salary as I drew twenty years ago. (Never mind adjustment for inflation. It's the same actual number of dollars.) I have a clear enough understanding of my trade that I'm willing to buy my own tools when they save me time (keyboards, monitors, development tool licenses, VM service fees, etc). This all works for me. My kids are out of college without debt. I've got some money stashed in 401(k). I wouldn't mind retiring, but my small-company employer can't afford to hire somebody younger and they've asked me to stick around.
- webmaven 9y ago
  By "somebody younger" do you mean someone in their 50s or 40s, or are they looking for a recent graduate in their 20s?

015UUZn8aEvW 9y ago

I know the local pay scale pretty well. He was out of work for a while, and he definitely would have taken a salary equivalent to what I was making.

jorgen123 9y ago

> He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? That is an assumption that may be invalid. Everybody is in their own private situation. Your assumption will be true for many but not for all. Many older folks may not need a top salary anymore and will take an average income for the pleasure of working with other fine people and doing interesting things. At some point in your life the career ladder will be less important than quality of life.

Clubber 9y ago

>He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? So, the only way that is even in the realm of possibility is if the kid was making $30K and the greybeard was making $300K. That's another benefit of greybeards: you get more bang for the buck simply because of the way salaries scale vs. performance that comes with good experience.

user5994461 9y ago
Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range. Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...
- jjeaff 9y ago
  Still not realistic. Assuming an entry level dev in sv is making 100k, most 50 year old devs are not making $500k. More like 50% more or at most twice as much.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    The norm is to double or triple salary between graduation and much experience. Remember that costs is more than just salary. In SF/NYC, juniors can start under 100k, seniors can go over 300k. Either number could go either way, let's not argue about who got what. The point is, there is a LARGE multiplier. I recall one friend in London, in a junior position. Left his company because of bad conditions and bad pay. One of his last assignment was to interview some possible replacements. There was one senior guy 20+ years of experience that was great, the company made an offer for around double his own salary. Do you know what happened? The guy declined. Guess what we found out later? He joined another company that offered him around three times that double. Young folks don't realize how expensive experienced folks can be.
    - Clubber 9y ago
      So 10x to 5x to 3x, which isn't really a large multiplier. Also, a guy worth $300K is a "large multiplier" more valuable than 3 entry level juniors at $100K.
      - shard 9y ago
        3x the double gives 6x.
        user5994461 9y ago
        Yes and that's ignoring the compensation in bonus/RSU/healthcare.
  - talmand 9y ago
    I would say from my experience that I could be making three times that of a junior developer at their first job, in my area. But I would not say that I am making twice that of someone with half my experience. Someone that's just five years behind me is pretty much making what I'm making. This notion that experienced developers, as a whole in the industry, are making x times more than junior developers is nonsense. Utter nonsense spoken by people who have no idea of what they're talking about. It's true you can find outliers for that kind of thing, and I'm willing to bet they are specialty cases. Early in my career I would get huge jumps in pay when I proved myself at a project. Almost fifteen years into this career and I don't get those huge jumps in pay anymore after a successful project. Not because I'm not deserving of the praise, but I'm already paid well to deliver based on my experience. A junior succeeds and gets a raise; a senior succeeds and moves on to the next project. Could I get one of these mythical 300k jobs? I know I can. I'm willing to bet I could snag a 500k job if I pushed myself. But that would require sacrifices I'm not willing to make, give up hobbies that I enjoy, and live in a city I really don't care for. A city that would eat up the extra income anyway. I'm more than happy with my current job that pays well and I get to mentor juniors every day, which I enjoy.

nhebb 9y ago

As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?

user5994461 9y ago
A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime. They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to. That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price. Last but not least there is the question of what is premium wage. In London for instance, a lot of folks over 30 moved to contracting where they can charge a good daily rate, without the hassle of whiteboard interview, overtime or politics. You'll see many companies (see the HN who is hiring) allegedly struggling to recruit at their great wages, but the truth is that employees have moved out to greener pastures for twice the money.
- nhebb 9y ago
  > A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. I must travel in lowly circles.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    I suppose the distribution is extreme on both sides. Either you accumulated assets from early on and you're golden, or you're still struggling with rent and no pension in sight.
    - Balgair 9y ago
      Um, what? Like, cashflow at 50 with 3 kids is important. Yeah, you've saved for retirement at ~65ish, but you have 2 kids in college with one on the way up, plus a mortgage, plus just regular life stuff. That's not an unreasonable scenario at all. Like, do you live in a first world nation? Honestly, the paradigm changes a lot in the 3rd world and your confusion would be more appropriate in Chad or something. (In Chad, average age of first birth is 18, so you'd reasonably be a grand parent by 50, plus cost of living is very low)

coding123 9y ago

In my experience that kind of pay differential exists in two places: Pakistan - US or Intern - Not intern. All other roles for different ages I've ever seen has been based on experience and not age, and at the companies I've been that experience is only about 30-50% higher at the worst.

user5994461 9y ago
At most companies I've seen, in a single team, two people doing the same thing with a similar amount of experience can have a difference of pay of double.
- brepl 9y ago
  Why is this getting downvoted?
- coding123 9y ago
  This is absolutely true- a two, three or four person team where they all have similar skills, similar ideas of good coding practices and a tight-knit method of idea sharing can blast through code and get things done in 24 hours that I've seen distributed teams of 15 in Pakistan, Mexico and India perform in 60-180 days. (In this specific case I am thinking of building out an MPI statistical patient matching). I'm not saying that kind of skill isn't found in those countries - but I'm specifically talking about a US company trying to do a software project like that. I'm fully aware a team in Pakistan that can plan and perform really well locally when the idea and project is thought of in Pakistan.

OliverJones 9y ago

I'm a developer in my sixties. I guess I'm what most HN readers would call an "old white guy." I like working as a developer, and I do a decent job of it. I'm drawing the same salary as I drew twenty years ago. (Never mind adjustment for inflation. It's the same actual number of dollars.) I have a clear enough understanding of my trade that I'm willing to buy my own tools when they save me time (keyboards, monitors, development tool licenses, VM service fees, etc). This all works for me. My kids are out of college without debt. I've got some money stashed in 401(k). I wouldn't mind retiring, but my small-company employer can't afford to hire somebody younger and they've asked me to stick around.

webmaven 9y ago
By "somebody younger" do you mean someone in their 50s or 40s, or are they looking for a recent graduate in their 20s?