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I'm a grad student at an elite American university. Several weeks ago, some other students and I attended a recruiting presentation put on by a large multinatio

I'm a grad student at an elite American university. Several weeks ago, some other students and I attended a recruiting presentation put on by a large multinational company I won't name. The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. She emphasized that she was looking for diversity, because, as she said, "the type of people on the other side of the table from us are different than they used to be, and they don't want to be dealing with a bunch of 65-year-old white guys. So those aren't the type of people we're looking for." That's pretty much a direct quote. I was at a small company before I went to grad school. The company began working with a guy in his sixties who'd been laid off for a while and couldn't find work, even though he had a ton of experience. We brought him in on a contract basis, and his role gradually expanded as it became clear that he had both excellent technical knowledge and great people skills. He became a mentor to me and helped me out a ton. He's objectively better at our profession than I am in multiple dimensions, but right now I could find a new job ten times more easily than he could. I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage.

user5994461 9y ago
>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?
- 015UUZn8aEvW 9y ago
  I know the local pay scale pretty well. He was out of work for a while, and he definitely would have taken a salary equivalent to what I was making.
- jorgen123 9y ago
  > He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? That is an assumption that may be invalid. Everybody is in their own private situation. Your assumption will be true for many but not for all. Many older folks may not need a top salary anymore and will take an average income for the pleasure of working with other fine people and doing interesting things. At some point in your life the career ladder will be less important than quality of life.
- Clubber 9y ago
  >He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? So, the only way that is even in the realm of possibility is if the kid was making $30K and the greybeard was making $300K. That's another benefit of greybeards: you get more bang for the buck simply because of the way salaries scale vs. performance that comes with good experience.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range. Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...
    - jjeaff 9y ago
      Still not realistic. Assuming an entry level dev in sv is making 100k, most 50 year old devs are not making $500k. More like 50% more or at most twice as much.
      - user5994461 9y ago
        The norm is to double or triple salary between graduation and much experience. Remember that costs is more than just salary. In SF/NYC, juniors can start under 100k, seniors can go over 300k. Either number could go either way, let's not argue about who got what. The point is, there is a LARGE multiplier. I recall one friend in London, in a junior position. Left his company because of bad conditions and bad pay. One of his last assignment was to interview some possible replacements. There was one senior guy 20+ years of experience that was great, the company made an offer for around double his own salary. Do you know what happened? The guy declined. Guess what we found out later? He joined another company that offered him around three times that double. Young folks don't realize how expensive experienced folks can be.
        Clubber 9y ago
        So 10x to 5x to 3x, which isn't really a large multiplier. Also, a guy worth $300K is a "large multiplier" more valuable than 3 entry level juniors at $100K.
- nhebb 9y ago
  As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?
  - user5994461 9y ago
    A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime. They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to. That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price. Last but not least there is the question of what is premium wage. In London for instance, a lot of folks over 30 moved to contracting where they can charge a good daily rate, without the hassle of whiteboard interview, overtime or politics. You'll see many companies (see the HN who is hiring) allegedly struggling to recruit at their great wages, but the truth is that employees have moved out to greener pastures for twice the money.
    - nhebb 9y ago
      > A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. I must travel in lowly circles.
      - user5994461 9y ago
        I suppose the distribution is extreme on both sides. Either you accumulated assets from early on and you're golden, or you're still struggling with rent and no pension in sight.
        Balgair 9y ago
        Um, what? Like, cashflow at 50 with 3 kids is important. Yeah, you've saved for retirement at ~65ish, but you have 2 kids in college with one on the way up, plus a mortgage, plus just regular life stuff. That's not an unreasonable scenario at all. Like, do you live in a first world nation? Honestly, the paradigm changes a lot in the 3rd world and your confusion would be more appropriate in Chad or something. (In Chad, average age of first birth is 18, so you'd reasonably be a grand parent by 50, plus cost of living is very low)
- coding123 9y ago
  In my experience that kind of pay differential exists in two places: Pakistan - US or Intern - Not intern. All other roles for different ages I've ever seen has been based on experience and not age, and at the companies I've been that experience is only about 30-50% higher at the worst.
  - user5994461 9y ago
    At most companies I've seen, in a single team, two people doing the same thing with a similar amount of experience can have a difference of pay of double.
    - brepl 9y ago
      Why is this getting downvoted?
    - coding123 9y ago
      This is absolutely true- a two, three or four person team where they all have similar skills, similar ideas of good coding practices and a tight-knit method of idea sharing can blast through code and get things done in 24 hours that I've seen distributed teams of 15 in Pakistan, Mexico and India perform in 60-180 days. (In this specific case I am thinking of building out an MPI statistical patient matching). I'm not saying that kind of skill isn't found in those countries - but I'm specifically talking about a US company trying to do a software project like that. I'm fully aware a team in Pakistan that can plan and perform really well locally when the idea and project is thought of in Pakistan.
- OliverJones 9y ago
  I'm a developer in my sixties. I guess I'm what most HN readers would call an "old white guy." I like working as a developer, and I do a decent job of it. I'm drawing the same salary as I drew twenty years ago. (Never mind adjustment for inflation. It's the same actual number of dollars.) I have a clear enough understanding of my trade that I'm willing to buy my own tools when they save me time (keyboards, monitors, development tool licenses, VM service fees, etc). This all works for me. My kids are out of college without debt. I've got some money stashed in 401(k). I wouldn't mind retiring, but my small-company employer can't afford to hire somebody younger and they've asked me to stick around.
  - webmaven 9y ago
    By "somebody younger" do you mean someone in their 50s or 40s, or are they looking for a recent graduate in their 20s?
JBlue42 9y ago
Thanks for actually noticing that. I think we lack some measure of empathy and observation these days.
wadkar 9y ago
> as she said, "the type of people on the other side of the table from us are different than they used to be, and they don't want to be dealing with a bunch of 65-year-old white guys. So those aren't the type of people we're looking for." That's pretty much a direct quote. Not to defend the quote, but I wonder how else would you characterize “non-diversity” in this context? Specifically, if their current workforce composition is indeed “bunch of 60 something old white males” then how else would you express your desire to be diverse without referring to the current reality?
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
- JetSetWilly 9y ago
  I highly doubt that this mysterious "company with a large proportion of the search engine market" is filled with 65yo white males. In fact it would actually make them significantly more diverse if they were to hire some 65yo white males.
  - kridsdale 9y ago
    My thought was Microsoft. There are a ton of those from back in the day still there.
    - kelukelugames 9y ago
      I suspect Microsoft. I've heard more than one young white person complain they don't want to work with "old" people. I don't think this is a tech thing as much as an American society thing. We are too biased against older age groups.
  - tgb 9y ago
    You've confused the two companies that the parent was talking about. The company that wanted diversity had a contact with the 'mystery' company that has a search engine.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
ainiriand 9y ago
You sir are everything that is right in this world. You won the internet today.
omginternets 9y ago
> The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. If you're being oblique to avoid libel, it's worth noting that libel law doesn't care about whether nor not you name an entity. It cares about whether or not you've identified an entity. Google has been identified.
- chrisper 9y ago
  For all we know it could be Bing!
  - romanovcode 9y ago
    Yandex
    - Bombthecat 9y ago
      The Chinese version of Google. Forgot there name though. They are huge :)
      - romanovcode 9y ago
        Baidu
  - omginternets 9y ago
    Generally, a handfull of possibilities counts as identification (at least, from a jurisprudence point of view)
- bsder 9y ago
  And if there were multiple people in that audience who concur about that quote, said entity is on the hook for a class action for millions of dollars. Somehow, I don't think this one is going to get pursued ...
  - omginternets 9y ago
ScoutOrgo 9y ago
So your competitive advantage is doing the exact same thing these companies are doing, except with a different demographic?
whack 9y ago
I've heard similar quotes before, and always assumed the speaker meant that they didn't want everyone to be a old/white/guy, not that they didn't want anyone who was a old/white/guy. Context matters a lot - such quotes are usually said in reference to a company's leadership team, and there's quite a bit of truth to them. When you look at the list of CEOs/Senior-Executives/Board-members at Fortune 500 companies, it's overwhelmingly middle-aged/old white men. I would consider that just as problematic as the age-discrimination that the article was referring to.
- ThrowAway3456 9y ago
  Visible Minority men here chiming in; I find this type of perspective (and the lack of empathy that underlines it) kinda saddening. Most of the argument you are saying are the same we used to make to other minority, "No i didn't mean all of them", "Understand the context in which i make a wide generalization etc..." > assumed the speaker meant... I am guessing you are not an old person being subject to ageism... > Context matters a lot Yes it does, the context in which the statement is made, the person who made it and the context in which the statement is receive. Asking us to only consider on side of the communication ,and making excuse because in certain context the statement is not offensive doesn't seem fair to me. > such quotes are usually said in reference to a company's leadership team, and there's quite a bit of truth to them There is truth in any stereotype, that's why they exist. The usual issue is that they are alienating and non inclusive to some people. > it's overwhelmingly middle-aged/old white men And the prisons in America are filled with poeple who look like me, should i be okay with generalization on me about that. One thing that it seems that most leftist like me forget is that most CEOs are white , but most white are not CEOs... > I would consider that just as problematic as the age-discrimination that the article was referring to. Yes and the first step is adopt an inclusive language, and not make excuse we wouldn't accept on any other protected classes. The fight for diversity is won we get everybody on board. When we start to have a hierarchy of protected classes, some classes where it's kind of okay to discriminate against because X,Y,Z reasons then it starts to look like the exact opposite of what we are trying to achieve And i guess the most interesting thing is the amount the mental gymnastic we have to do to find this statement okay, instead of just taking the most plausible explanation... It simply reflect the latent ageism in our industry, and the fact that it is still okay to be ageist so long as it's directed at white men...
reaperducer 9y ago
I feel this every time I'm between jobs. I'm all of gasp 45, and know from experience that the coding job I have right now, I have to ride as long as I can because at my age I'll probably never get another job again. It doesn't matter how skilled a person is, or how much experience they have, in Silicon Valley you have a better chance of getting hired as a 20-something serial dog molester than a 50-year-old experienced tech. And filtering out older people, while illegal, is so very easy to do to 99% of applicants by simply by looking at the year they got their undergrad degree.
- jamielee 9y ago
  That's really sad. Why would you even want to work in Silicon Valley if they treat people like that? There are plenty of jobs elsewhere that are less inclined to discriminate.
- Pica_soO 9y ago
  So if a older techie would redo his undergrad degree- he would reenter the workforce?
  - sombremesa 9y ago
    You could also just leave the degree off your resume. If you have recent experience, you can even omit some of your early experience. Degrees don't count for a lot (unless you have zero experience) in silicon valley or tech companies in general, unless you're going for a research spot.
canes123456 9y ago
SV might be going too far in the other direction but the market inefficiency for rest of the world is overpaying old white guys. The people younger than me are smarter, harder working than me and underpaid. They lack a bit of experience but that all balances out in 6 months. The key experience is learning the how to work with the production ball of mud that is different at every job. The people older than me are mostly lazy, mediocre at their job, and overpaid. The woman tend to be good but the guys are entitled. The competitive is looking the part and being good at politics.
eveningcoffee 9y ago
It is shocking how they do not understand how racist they are.
jamielee 9y ago
That recruiter you were speaking of probably meant that they were looking to hire a diverse set of people, as opposed to primarily just 65-year old white guys (which she probably believes to be the majority demographic that you'll see in a stuffy corporate environment). She should not have said "65-year old", as that is blatant age discrimination. And she should not have brought in the terms "white guy", as it is racist stereotyping. It seems like that recruiter is really out of touch with what promoting diversity in the workplace is about. However, despite this, you cannot deny that the majority of people working in the tech sector are white or asian and male. That's just a fact. I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. That old white guy you worked with will not have a problem getting a job in the future, eventually, unless he has some sort of character flaw that renders him absolutely unemployable. Hell, he already has a job right now, though on contract basis. Even just getting your foot in the door is much harder if he was not white and male. You just proved so yourself by saying you would have a job lined up for him and people of his demographic. You are acting like old white men are the victims here. They are victims, but only because of their age. Now you know what discrimination looks and feels like. This is why diversification is important. It's simply a protection measure to help ensure equality and fairness.
- ThrowAway3456 9y ago
  Same minority men here, chiming in again... I thing we need to dig into this kind of perspective since i really beleive this does more arm to the diversity fight than help. > She should not have said "65-year old", as that is blatant age discrimination. And she should not have brought in the terms "white guy", as it is racist stereotyping. It seems like that recruiter is really out of touch with what promoting diversity in the workplace is about. I am glad we can agree on this > That recruiter you were speaking of probably meant that they were looking to hire a diverse set of people, as opposed to primarily just 65-year old white guys (which she probably believes to be the majority demographic that you'll see in a stuffy corporate environment). I am not sure what warrant this generous interpretation. All we have to go with is a a "Derogatory" sentence from someone not in the group (young vs old). She is supposed to be train to speak publicly on behalf of a big company. She is supposed to understand diversity a litle deeper than the average joe. I am not sure what she meant, but to me the "way" she spoke speaks also volume on our industry ageism. I don't think we would have heard this about either hispanics/blacks or women. > However, despite this, you cannot deny that the majority of people working in the tech sector are white or asian and male. That's just a fact. I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. OP is not denying anything, he did not even mentioned diversity efforts or anything of that sort. The article was about ageism, and his comment was related a story where is people supposed to be trained to look for diversity make "bad" comments on old people. He probably feels concern about it because he can see him self in the old guy in a couple of year, or simply the proximity with the guy in his story make him feel some sympathy for him. "Straw Maning" "look at this old white guy suffering" into "you are denying the struggle of of all this other people" is bizarre and from my perspective show a lack of empathy. Then going on a lecture on diversity is not helping. > I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. He is not, he is showing a deficiency in our inclusiveness. > That old white guy you worked with will not have a problem getting a job in the future, eventually, unless he has some sort of character flaw that renders him absolutely unemployable. Doesn't this article prove otherwise ? You saying this is essentially denying ageism. > Hell, he already has a job right now, though on contract basis. Discrimination is more nuance than getting or not getting a job. It's about being pass for certain possition, it's about having to work harder for the same reward, or working the same for less reward. It's about like in this case someone having the capacities to be a fully employ but having to settle for contract work. > You are acting like old white men are the victims here. They are victims, but only because of their age. I am not sure the point of this is on a thread on ageism. there is so many thing wrong with this statement.. > I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. Since we are sharing feelings. I feel like you trivializing other people experiences and trying to create a hierarchy of protected classes. We don't go around telling cancer patient about the pains of poverty or vice versa. We don't go around telling white women complaining about sexual harassment about black men being killed by the police or vice versa. We don't feel the need to compare and judge and contrast those experiences. We just accept them as the general suckiness and unfairness of life, offer help when we can, sympathy when we can't; When we do so, we are alienating people without good reasons. People will naturally fell more empathy toward certain groups either by identification or by just shared experience, and that's okay. We don't need to lecture them just because they aren't focusing on the group we want to focus on. Ageism is a problem, if you don't feel strongly about it that's okay, but please stop telling people who do , that they should be focusing on something else...
dennis_jeeves 9y ago
>I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. Count me if you can. No, not to give me a job but to be your partner. I would guess that there are some really smart older people who are under utilized because of all perceived drawback of age( often by not very smart people). But smart people are rare - there are immensely valuable whatever their age may be.

user5994461 9y ago

>>> I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that?

015UUZn8aEvW 9y ago
I know the local pay scale pretty well. He was out of work for a while, and he definitely would have taken a salary equivalent to what I was making.
jorgen123 9y ago
> He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? That is an assumption that may be invalid. Everybody is in their own private situation. Your assumption will be true for many but not for all. Many older folks may not need a top salary anymore and will take an average income for the pleasure of working with other fine people and doing interesting things. At some point in your life the career ladder will be less important than quality of life.
Clubber 9y ago
>He could be 10 times more expensive than you. Did you consider that? So, the only way that is even in the realm of possibility is if the kid was making $30K and the greybeard was making $300K. That's another benefit of greybeards: you get more bang for the buck simply because of the way salaries scale vs. performance that comes with good experience.
- user5994461 9y ago
  Call it 5 times if you wish. That's a fairly normal range. Costs is more than just salary. 5 weeks vs 2 weeks of hollidays, 401k, health insurance, etc...
  - jjeaff 9y ago
    Still not realistic. Assuming an entry level dev in sv is making 100k, most 50 year old devs are not making $500k. More like 50% more or at most twice as much.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      The norm is to double or triple salary between graduation and much experience. Remember that costs is more than just salary. In SF/NYC, juniors can start under 100k, seniors can go over 300k. Either number could go either way, let's not argue about who got what. The point is, there is a LARGE multiplier. I recall one friend in London, in a junior position. Left his company because of bad conditions and bad pay. One of his last assignment was to interview some possible replacements. There was one senior guy 20+ years of experience that was great, the company made an offer for around double his own salary. Do you know what happened? The guy declined. Guess what we found out later? He joined another company that offered him around three times that double. Young folks don't realize how expensive experienced folks can be.
      - Clubber 9y ago
        So 10x to 5x to 3x, which isn't really a large multiplier. Also, a guy worth $300K is a "large multiplier" more valuable than 3 entry level juniors at $100K.
nhebb 9y ago
As someone in their 50's, that argument makes no sense to me. If I were unable to find a job, you somehow think I'd hold out for premium wages?
- user5994461 9y ago
  A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. As long as they bought their home when it was affordable, they are fine. Some have sizable assets that the younger folks can't dream to achieve in their lifetime. They won't accept work for less than premium wages, don't need to. That being said, I admit that there is also another part of the population who is struggling and desperate for work at any price. Last but not least there is the question of what is premium wage. In London for instance, a lot of folks over 30 moved to contracting where they can charge a good daily rate, without the hassle of whiteboard interview, overtime or politics. You'll see many companies (see the HN who is hiring) allegedly struggling to recruit at their great wages, but the truth is that employees have moved out to greener pastures for twice the money.
  - nhebb 9y ago
    > A lot of people in their 50's don't need to work. I must travel in lowly circles.
    - user5994461 9y ago
      I suppose the distribution is extreme on both sides. Either you accumulated assets from early on and you're golden, or you're still struggling with rent and no pension in sight.
      - Balgair 9y ago
        Um, what? Like, cashflow at 50 with 3 kids is important. Yeah, you've saved for retirement at ~65ish, but you have 2 kids in college with one on the way up, plus a mortgage, plus just regular life stuff. That's not an unreasonable scenario at all. Like, do you live in a first world nation? Honestly, the paradigm changes a lot in the 3rd world and your confusion would be more appropriate in Chad or something. (In Chad, average age of first birth is 18, so you'd reasonably be a grand parent by 50, plus cost of living is very low)
coding123 9y ago
In my experience that kind of pay differential exists in two places: Pakistan - US or Intern - Not intern. All other roles for different ages I've ever seen has been based on experience and not age, and at the companies I've been that experience is only about 30-50% higher at the worst.
- user5994461 9y ago
  At most companies I've seen, in a single team, two people doing the same thing with a similar amount of experience can have a difference of pay of double.
  - brepl 9y ago
    Why is this getting downvoted?
  - coding123 9y ago
    This is absolutely true- a two, three or four person team where they all have similar skills, similar ideas of good coding practices and a tight-knit method of idea sharing can blast through code and get things done in 24 hours that I've seen distributed teams of 15 in Pakistan, Mexico and India perform in 60-180 days. (In this specific case I am thinking of building out an MPI statistical patient matching). I'm not saying that kind of skill isn't found in those countries - but I'm specifically talking about a US company trying to do a software project like that. I'm fully aware a team in Pakistan that can plan and perform really well locally when the idea and project is thought of in Pakistan.
OliverJones 9y ago
I'm a developer in my sixties. I guess I'm what most HN readers would call an "old white guy." I like working as a developer, and I do a decent job of it. I'm drawing the same salary as I drew twenty years ago. (Never mind adjustment for inflation. It's the same actual number of dollars.) I have a clear enough understanding of my trade that I'm willing to buy my own tools when they save me time (keyboards, monitors, development tool licenses, VM service fees, etc). This all works for me. My kids are out of college without debt. I've got some money stashed in 401(k). I wouldn't mind retiring, but my small-company employer can't afford to hire somebody younger and they've asked me to stick around.
- webmaven 9y ago
  By "somebody younger" do you mean someone in their 50s or 40s, or are they looking for a recent graduate in their 20s?

JBlue42 9y ago

Thanks for actually noticing that. I think we lack some measure of empathy and observation these days.

wadkar 9y ago

> as she said, "the type of people on the other side of the table from us are different than they used to be, and they don't want to be dealing with a bunch of 65-year-old white guys. So those aren't the type of people we're looking for." That's pretty much a direct quote. Not to defend the quote, but I wonder how else would you characterize “non-diversity” in this context? Specifically, if their current workforce composition is indeed “bunch of 60 something old white males” then how else would you express your desire to be diverse without referring to the current reality?

deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
JetSetWilly 9y ago
I highly doubt that this mysterious "company with a large proportion of the search engine market" is filled with 65yo white males. In fact it would actually make them significantly more diverse if they were to hire some 65yo white males.
- kridsdale 9y ago
  My thought was Microsoft. There are a ton of those from back in the day still there.
  - kelukelugames 9y ago
    I suspect Microsoft. I've heard more than one young white person complain they don't want to work with "old" people. I don't think this is a tech thing as much as an American society thing. We are too biased against older age groups.
- tgb 9y ago
  You've confused the two companies that the parent was talking about. The company that wanted diversity had a contact with the 'mystery' company that has a search engine.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

ainiriand 9y ago

You sir are everything that is right in this world. You won the internet today.

omginternets 9y ago

> The woman who gave the presentation services her company's contract with a tech company, that, let's just say, has a big share of the search engine market. If you're being oblique to avoid libel, it's worth noting that libel law doesn't care about whether nor not you name an entity. It cares about whether or not you've identified an entity. Google has been identified.

chrisper 9y ago
For all we know it could be Bing!
- romanovcode 9y ago
  Yandex
  - Bombthecat 9y ago
    The Chinese version of Google. Forgot there name though. They are huge :)
    - romanovcode 9y ago
      Baidu
- omginternets 9y ago
  Generally, a handfull of possibilities counts as identification (at least, from a jurisprudence point of view)
bsder 9y ago
And if there were multiple people in that audience who concur about that quote, said entity is on the hook for a class action for millions of dollars. Somehow, I don't think this one is going to get pursued ...
- omginternets 9y ago

ScoutOrgo 9y ago

So your competitive advantage is doing the exact same thing these companies are doing, except with a different demographic?

whack 9y ago

I've heard similar quotes before, and always assumed the speaker meant that they didn't want everyone to be a old/white/guy, not that they didn't want anyone who was a old/white/guy. Context matters a lot - such quotes are usually said in reference to a company's leadership team, and there's quite a bit of truth to them. When you look at the list of CEOs/Senior-Executives/Board-members at Fortune 500 companies, it's overwhelmingly middle-aged/old white men. I would consider that just as problematic as the age-discrimination that the article was referring to.

ThrowAway3456 9y ago
Visible Minority men here chiming in; I find this type of perspective (and the lack of empathy that underlines it) kinda saddening. Most of the argument you are saying are the same we used to make to other minority, "No i didn't mean all of them", "Understand the context in which i make a wide generalization etc..." > assumed the speaker meant... I am guessing you are not an old person being subject to ageism... > Context matters a lot Yes it does, the context in which the statement is made, the person who made it and the context in which the statement is receive. Asking us to only consider on side of the communication ,and making excuse because in certain context the statement is not offensive doesn't seem fair to me. > such quotes are usually said in reference to a company's leadership team, and there's quite a bit of truth to them There is truth in any stereotype, that's why they exist. The usual issue is that they are alienating and non inclusive to some people. > it's overwhelmingly middle-aged/old white men And the prisons in America are filled with poeple who look like me, should i be okay with generalization on me about that. One thing that it seems that most leftist like me forget is that most CEOs are white , but most white are not CEOs... > I would consider that just as problematic as the age-discrimination that the article was referring to. Yes and the first step is adopt an inclusive language, and not make excuse we wouldn't accept on any other protected classes. The fight for diversity is won we get everybody on board. When we start to have a hierarchy of protected classes, some classes where it's kind of okay to discriminate against because X,Y,Z reasons then it starts to look like the exact opposite of what we are trying to achieve And i guess the most interesting thing is the amount the mental gymnastic we have to do to find this statement okay, instead of just taking the most plausible explanation... It simply reflect the latent ageism in our industry, and the fact that it is still okay to be ageist so long as it's directed at white men...

reaperducer 9y ago

I feel this every time I'm between jobs. I'm all of gasp 45, and know from experience that the coding job I have right now, I have to ride as long as I can because at my age I'll probably never get another job again. It doesn't matter how skilled a person is, or how much experience they have, in Silicon Valley you have a better chance of getting hired as a 20-something serial dog molester than a 50-year-old experienced tech. And filtering out older people, while illegal, is so very easy to do to 99% of applicants by simply by looking at the year they got their undergrad degree.

jamielee 9y ago
That's really sad. Why would you even want to work in Silicon Valley if they treat people like that? There are plenty of jobs elsewhere that are less inclined to discriminate.
Pica_soO 9y ago
So if a older techie would redo his undergrad degree- he would reenter the workforce?
- sombremesa 9y ago
  You could also just leave the degree off your resume. If you have recent experience, you can even omit some of your early experience. Degrees don't count for a lot (unless you have zero experience) in silicon valley or tech companies in general, unless you're going for a research spot.

canes123456 9y ago

SV might be going too far in the other direction but the market inefficiency for rest of the world is overpaying old white guys. The people younger than me are smarter, harder working than me and underpaid. They lack a bit of experience but that all balances out in 6 months. The key experience is learning the how to work with the production ball of mud that is different at every job. The people older than me are mostly lazy, mediocre at their job, and overpaid. The woman tend to be good but the guys are entitled. The competitive is looking the part and being good at politics.

eveningcoffee 9y ago

It is shocking how they do not understand how racist they are.

jamielee 9y ago

That recruiter you were speaking of probably meant that they were looking to hire a diverse set of people, as opposed to primarily just 65-year old white guys (which she probably believes to be the majority demographic that you'll see in a stuffy corporate environment). She should not have said "65-year old", as that is blatant age discrimination. And she should not have brought in the terms "white guy", as it is racist stereotyping. It seems like that recruiter is really out of touch with what promoting diversity in the workplace is about. However, despite this, you cannot deny that the majority of people working in the tech sector are white or asian and male. That's just a fact. I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. That old white guy you worked with will not have a problem getting a job in the future, eventually, unless he has some sort of character flaw that renders him absolutely unemployable. Hell, he already has a job right now, though on contract basis. Even just getting your foot in the door is much harder if he was not white and male. You just proved so yourself by saying you would have a job lined up for him and people of his demographic. You are acting like old white men are the victims here. They are victims, but only because of their age. Now you know what discrimination looks and feels like. This is why diversification is important. It's simply a protection measure to help ensure equality and fairness.

ThrowAway3456 9y ago
Same minority men here, chiming in again... I thing we need to dig into this kind of perspective since i really beleive this does more arm to the diversity fight than help. > She should not have said "65-year old", as that is blatant age discrimination. And she should not have brought in the terms "white guy", as it is racist stereotyping. It seems like that recruiter is really out of touch with what promoting diversity in the workplace is about. I am glad we can agree on this > That recruiter you were speaking of probably meant that they were looking to hire a diverse set of people, as opposed to primarily just 65-year old white guys (which she probably believes to be the majority demographic that you'll see in a stuffy corporate environment). I am not sure what warrant this generous interpretation. All we have to go with is a a "Derogatory" sentence from someone not in the group (young vs old). She is supposed to be train to speak publicly on behalf of a big company. She is supposed to understand diversity a litle deeper than the average joe. I am not sure what she meant, but to me the "way" she spoke speaks also volume on our industry ageism. I don't think we would have heard this about either hispanics/blacks or women. > However, despite this, you cannot deny that the majority of people working in the tech sector are white or asian and male. That's just a fact. I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. OP is not denying anything, he did not even mentioned diversity efforts or anything of that sort. The article was about ageism, and his comment was related a story where is people supposed to be trained to look for diversity make "bad" comments on old people. He probably feels concern about it because he can see him self in the old guy in a couple of year, or simply the proximity with the guy in his story make him feel some sympathy for him. "Straw Maning" "look at this old white guy suffering" into "you are denying the struggle of of all this other people" is bizarre and from my perspective show a lack of empathy. Then going on a lecture on diversity is not helping. > I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. He is not, he is showing a deficiency in our inclusiveness. > That old white guy you worked with will not have a problem getting a job in the future, eventually, unless he has some sort of character flaw that renders him absolutely unemployable. Doesn't this article prove otherwise ? You saying this is essentially denying ageism. > Hell, he already has a job right now, though on contract basis. Discrimination is more nuance than getting or not getting a job. It's about being pass for certain possition, it's about having to work harder for the same reward, or working the same for less reward. It's about like in this case someone having the capacities to be a fully employ but having to settle for contract work. > You are acting like old white men are the victims here. They are victims, but only because of their age. I am not sure the point of this is on a thread on ageism. there is so many thing wrong with this statement.. > I feel like you are demonizing diversification efforts in the work place just because of one experience you had. Since we are sharing feelings. I feel like you trivializing other people experiences and trying to create a hierarchy of protected classes. We don't go around telling cancer patient about the pains of poverty or vice versa. We don't go around telling white women complaining about sexual harassment about black men being killed by the police or vice versa. We don't feel the need to compare and judge and contrast those experiences. We just accept them as the general suckiness and unfairness of life, offer help when we can, sympathy when we can't; When we do so, we are alienating people without good reasons. People will naturally fell more empathy toward certain groups either by identification or by just shared experience, and that's okay. We don't need to lecture them just because they aren't focusing on the group we want to focus on. Ageism is a problem, if you don't feel strongly about it that's okay, but please stop telling people who do , that they should be focusing on something else...

dennis_jeeves 9y ago

>I'd like to start a business in 3 or 4 years, and I'm seriously considering going out of my way to target people like him. It'll be my competitive advantage. Count me if you can. No, not to give me a job but to be your partner. I would guess that there are some really smart older people who are under utilized because of all perceived drawback of age( often by not very smart people). But smart people are rare - there are immensely valuable whatever their age may be.