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I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I don’t want to strike up conversations with randos. They make

I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I don’t want to strike up conversations with randos. They make the train dirty. I don’t think this makes me “elitist.” The reason rich people don’t take public transit is because no one likes it, but the rich are more able to afford alternatives. A trend of history is extending luxuries of the few to the many. This looks to me like CityLab is emotionally attached to the current transit system, with all its flaws, and is a bit annoyed that someone is working on a better alternative.

foldr 9y ago
It sounds like you may be overgeneralizing your experiences in a particular city. At least here in London, the people you see on trains are a broad crossection of the general public, and are no smellier or less attractive (not sure why this matters?) than anyone you're likely to run into on the street. So, no, it is not the case that "no-one" likes public transport. I like it fine, and experience none of the issues with it that you seem to. I would generally prefer to get the tube as compared to e.g. an Uber, even if there were no price difference.
- lazerpants 9y ago
  >I would generally prefer to get the tube as compared to e.g. an Uber, even if there were no price difference. The rest of the discussion aside, I agree with you regarding my experiences on the NYC subway. However, that is because I organized my entire living situation around the locations of subway stations and lines near my office. If that constraint didn't exist (there were a reasonable alternative to the subway), I may well choose to live elsewhere, and therefore, prefer to use Ubers or other methods of transportation. For many of us who use public transportation, we have built our lives around a constraint that may no longer be present in the future and may allow for people to live in currently less desirable parts of cities.
  - foldr 9y ago
    People have been building their lives around available transport since the stone age. Nothing Musk is proposing is set to change that.
- ghaff 9y ago
  I'm sure there are, on average, demographic differences between who takes the subway, who takes a taxi/Uber, and who has a reserved black car. That said, I don't disagree with you in general. In cities with good public transit systems where transit is a genuinely easier way to get around much of the time, many people take the subway even if they could afford something else. I know that's true for me in Boston, New York, and London to name 3 cities. I do take BART in SF but pretty much only to get in from the airport.
  - foldr 9y ago
    If some options are more expensive than others then there are bound to be demographic differences, even if the more expensive options aren't better. But so what? What's so terrible about traveling with people outside your demographic?
    - ghaff 9y ago
      Absolutely nothing. Not sure what I said to imply that.
  - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
    Here in DC, there actually is a demographic difference between people who take the subway and the overall population: the subway riders have a median household income of about 50% more than the overall population of the metro area.
habosa 9y ago
Efficient transit goes hand in hand with density. Stupidly simple example: Let' imagine we had a network of autonomous Teslas that drive everyone at 200mph for $0.05. We'd still end up putting two people in each Tesla, because it would double the efficiency. If you want to be alone, cities are not for you. Transit in cities will never be both efficient and solitary. The whole point is that there are a lot of people going to a smallish set of general destinations and we're better off bringing them there together.
ACow_Adonis 9y ago
Obviously one has to define rich here. The ultra-rich obviously don't take it for matters of exclusion, privacy and personal safety. But what middle class call the wealthy, I.e, the people who live in the most expensive inner city suburbs most certainly do catch public transport in my city. Let us be frank, ghee wealthy don't catch public transport in American cities because you practically have none to catch and you're cities aren't designed for it
bunderbunder 9y ago
I like it. It's not perfect, but nothing is. The worst flaw, which is that you occasionally have to sit near someone whose music is a bit too loud, is still way less bothersome to me than the worst flaws of the major alternatives, which are that they are some combination of expensive, stressful and dangerous. That said, I am deeply sorry to hear that you are so offended to have to be in the presence of people who you don't find attractive. Automobiles do sound like a good accommodation for someone with special needs such as that.
typomatic 9y ago
You don't want to ride the train with unattractive people, but you're not elitist.
lanius 9y ago
> I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I wouldn't want to ride a train with you either.
mc32 9y ago
I like transit, but transit in SF is horrid. Slow, people with mental health issues on board, filthiness, it does not go everywhere (within 20min walk). But, one of the biggest things is lack of cleanliness. I mean, after knowing the people who board and use the system, it's hard not to think of how unclean the trip is. Your hands, your clothing all possibly in touch with contaminants. Also, of you want families to use the system, crack down on people who think they're in their on house (drinking of alcoholic bevs., on drugs, loud, obnoxious, profane, underdressed to put it lightly, etc.)
CaptSpify 9y ago
I take public transportation every day. I much prefer it over owning a vehicle, but you are correct. I would, however, encourage you to try public transportation in non-US cities. The US does a really piss-poor job of it, even in the most public-transit friendly cities. If we used other cities as the base-level, you'd probably like it a lot more.
- zionic 9y ago
  "If you just change what country you live in, it won't be so bad" is pretty hilarious. People aren't going to move to the other side of the world to get good public transit.
  - CaptSpify 9y ago
    I never even remotely implied that. My point is that if you see other how non-US countries do it, you'll likely change your mind on how good it can be, and you'll realize how bad the US does it.
rayiner 9y ago
> The reason rich people don’t take public transit is because no one likes it, but the rich are more able to afford alternatives. Have you ever been on Metro North? There are tons of people making $1 million+/year taking the train into NYC from Greenwich and Westchester every morning. The trains are clean, and much more comfortable than driving: there is more leg room, your seat is more upright, there are bathrooms. They're also cleaner than at least my car.
aqsalose 9y ago
>They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. >I certainly won't miss riding the BART with sketchy looking characters at 12am. I wonder if there is difference in the amount of, erm, sketchiness of your sketchy looking characters in public transit and what I see here where I live (Helsinki). Taking a bus or metro during the normal daylight hours, I usually see a reasonable cross-section of the society, no less or more attractive than people you would see in any other public space. I can't recall anyone who would have smelled that bad (not counting the occasional overdose of perfume), not even the beggar who tries to sell The Big Issue.
- danans 9y ago
  There is no comparison, because you aren't comparing transit systems, you are comparing the differences in the societies' minimum standard of living. It's very likely that the beggar in Finland has access to much better public goods (like perhaps basic housing - hence a shower, healthcare) than their American counterpart.
- vibrato 9y ago
  As a Chicagoan, I’m jealous of all the non smelly public transit options written about here. More than once I’ve identified individuals by smell before seeing them
fpoling 9y ago
I used BART and Caltrain for few weeks in total between 2006 and 2012. The experience was so much worse than anything in Europe. Caltrain and to lesser extent Bart felt like everything was falling a part and people just gave up. And then the was the smell. Even Moscow underground was significantly better. There you got occasionally extremely smelly homeless people, but it was like each 20th trip, not each second or third. And in Norway I meet a situation when one does not want to seat near someone on a bus or train perhaps once a year.
danans 9y ago
> I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I don’t want to strike up conversations with randos. They make the train dirty. The vast majority of people who take mass transit in busy cities do not fit your description of "randos". They are clean, well mannered, and presentable. Based on your description of "randos", it sounds like you are actually referring to homeless people using the train. And while I agree that it is really unpleasant to have to occasionally share a train car with someone who hasn't bathed recently due to lack of housing, a better approach to that problem might be public support to help these people get housing and treatment for their afflictions, so that when they are on transit with you, they are no more or less offensive to you than anyone else.

foldr 9y ago

It sounds like you may be overgeneralizing your experiences in a particular city. At least here in London, the people you see on trains are a broad crossection of the general public, and are no smellier or less attractive (not sure why this matters?) than anyone you're likely to run into on the street. So, no, it is not the case that "no-one" likes public transport. I like it fine, and experience none of the issues with it that you seem to. I would generally prefer to get the tube as compared to e.g. an Uber, even if there were no price difference.

lazerpants 9y ago
>I would generally prefer to get the tube as compared to e.g. an Uber, even if there were no price difference. The rest of the discussion aside, I agree with you regarding my experiences on the NYC subway. However, that is because I organized my entire living situation around the locations of subway stations and lines near my office. If that constraint didn't exist (there were a reasonable alternative to the subway), I may well choose to live elsewhere, and therefore, prefer to use Ubers or other methods of transportation. For many of us who use public transportation, we have built our lives around a constraint that may no longer be present in the future and may allow for people to live in currently less desirable parts of cities.
- foldr 9y ago
  People have been building their lives around available transport since the stone age. Nothing Musk is proposing is set to change that.
ghaff 9y ago
I'm sure there are, on average, demographic differences between who takes the subway, who takes a taxi/Uber, and who has a reserved black car. That said, I don't disagree with you in general. In cities with good public transit systems where transit is a genuinely easier way to get around much of the time, many people take the subway even if they could afford something else. I know that's true for me in Boston, New York, and London to name 3 cities. I do take BART in SF but pretty much only to get in from the airport.
- foldr 9y ago
  If some options are more expensive than others then there are bound to be demographic differences, even if the more expensive options aren't better. But so what? What's so terrible about traveling with people outside your demographic?
  - ghaff 9y ago
    Absolutely nothing. Not sure what I said to imply that.
- TheCoelacanth 9y ago
  Here in DC, there actually is a demographic difference between people who take the subway and the overall population: the subway riders have a median household income of about 50% more than the overall population of the metro area.

habosa 9y ago

Efficient transit goes hand in hand with density. Stupidly simple example: Let' imagine we had a network of autonomous Teslas that drive everyone at 200mph for $0.05. We'd still end up putting two people in each Tesla, because it would double the efficiency. If you want to be alone, cities are not for you. Transit in cities will never be both efficient and solitary. The whole point is that there are a lot of people going to a smallish set of general destinations and we're better off bringing them there together.

ACow_Adonis 9y ago

Obviously one has to define rich here. The ultra-rich obviously don't take it for matters of exclusion, privacy and personal safety. But what middle class call the wealthy, I.e, the people who live in the most expensive inner city suburbs most certainly do catch public transport in my city. Let us be frank, ghee wealthy don't catch public transport in American cities because you practically have none to catch and you're cities aren't designed for it

bunderbunder 9y ago

I like it. It's not perfect, but nothing is. The worst flaw, which is that you occasionally have to sit near someone whose music is a bit too loud, is still way less bothersome to me than the worst flaws of the major alternatives, which are that they are some combination of expensive, stressful and dangerous. That said, I am deeply sorry to hear that you are so offended to have to be in the presence of people who you don't find attractive. Automobiles do sound like a good accommodation for someone with special needs such as that.

typomatic 9y ago

You don't want to ride the train with unattractive people, but you're not elitist.

lanius 9y ago

> I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I wouldn't want to ride a train with you either.

mc32 9y ago

I like transit, but transit in SF is horrid. Slow, people with mental health issues on board, filthiness, it does not go everywhere (within 20min walk). But, one of the biggest things is lack of cleanliness. I mean, after knowing the people who board and use the system, it's hard not to think of how unclean the trip is. Your hands, your clothing all possibly in touch with contaminants. Also, of you want families to use the system, crack down on people who think they're in their on house (drinking of alcoholic bevs., on drugs, loud, obnoxious, profane, underdressed to put it lightly, etc.)

CaptSpify 9y ago

I take public transportation every day. I much prefer it over owning a vehicle, but you are correct. I would, however, encourage you to try public transportation in non-US cities. The US does a really piss-poor job of it, even in the most public-transit friendly cities. If we used other cities as the base-level, you'd probably like it a lot more.

zionic 9y ago
"If you just change what country you live in, it won't be so bad" is pretty hilarious. People aren't going to move to the other side of the world to get good public transit.
- CaptSpify 9y ago
  I never even remotely implied that. My point is that if you see other how non-US countries do it, you'll likely change your mind on how good it can be, and you'll realize how bad the US does it.

rayiner 9y ago

> The reason rich people don’t take public transit is because no one likes it, but the rich are more able to afford alternatives. Have you ever been on Metro North? There are tons of people making $1 million+/year taking the train into NYC from Greenwich and Westchester every morning. The trains are clean, and much more comfortable than driving: there is more leg room, your seat is more upright, there are bathrooms. They're also cleaner than at least my car.

aqsalose 9y ago

>They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. >I certainly won't miss riding the BART with sketchy looking characters at 12am. I wonder if there is difference in the amount of, erm, sketchiness of your sketchy looking characters in public transit and what I see here where I live (Helsinki). Taking a bus or metro during the normal daylight hours, I usually see a reasonable cross-section of the society, no less or more attractive than people you would see in any other public space. I can't recall anyone who would have smelled that bad (not counting the occasional overdose of perfume), not even the beggar who tries to sell The Big Issue.

danans 9y ago
There is no comparison, because you aren't comparing transit systems, you are comparing the differences in the societies' minimum standard of living. It's very likely that the beggar in Finland has access to much better public goods (like perhaps basic housing - hence a shower, healthcare) than their American counterpart.
vibrato 9y ago
As a Chicagoan, I’m jealous of all the non smelly public transit options written about here. More than once I’ve identified individuals by smell before seeing them

fpoling 9y ago

I used BART and Caltrain for few weeks in total between 2006 and 2012. The experience was so much worse than anything in Europe. Caltrain and to lesser extent Bart felt like everything was falling a part and people just gave up. And then the was the smell. Even Moscow underground was significantly better. There you got occasionally extremely smelly homeless people, but it was like each 20th trip, not each second or third. And in Norway I meet a situation when one does not want to seat near someone on a bus or train perhaps once a year.

danans 9y ago

> I like people too but not random train passengers. They smell bad, are unattractive and grouchy. I don’t want to strike up conversations with randos. They make the train dirty. The vast majority of people who take mass transit in busy cities do not fit your description of "randos". They are clean, well mannered, and presentable. Based on your description of "randos", it sounds like you are actually referring to homeless people using the train. And while I agree that it is really unpleasant to have to occasionally share a train car with someone who hasn't bathed recently due to lack of housing, a better approach to that problem might be public support to help these people get housing and treatment for their afflictions, so that when they are on transit with you, they are no more or less offensive to you than anyone else.