6 ms·

Hell is a stylish shared office space

70 points by alphadevx 9y ago

secstate 9y ago
Not that I disagree with the specifics here, but I think there's a happy medium to find. Individual boxed offices for every employee is not efficient use of space most of time. While it's popular to kvetch about open plan offices now, when the pendulum swings back there's plenty to complain about the isolation and dead air of a private room (most are no bigger than closets). Personally, I think the move towards working from home is tremendous. Perhaps it is a failure of office, but maybe that's okay. Offices are something of a hold-over from the days of the Empire State Building and insurance companies with 10,000 employees processing hand written forms. Maybe open plan offices with the expectation that most folks wont spend all their time there is a better default?
- advisedwang 9y ago
  This blog post is complaining about office space shared with other companies in the Style of WeWork, not open plan office spaces.
  - secstate 9y ago
    My bad ... I tldr the whole thing and didn't get to the WeWork part :( #readerfail
megaman22 9y ago
I can't imagine such a work situation appealing to anybody other than extreme penny-pinchers, or maybe fresh grads, straight out of colleges. This sounds exactly like trying to get work done in a university library or study hall. If you've never known anything better, or you're the kind of person that needs that social stimuli, I can imagine you might think it was normal enough; I couldn't do it then; I'd work alone in my room or buried in the stacks. And now? Forget about it.
- markbnj 9y ago
  I work for a fully-remote company and a number of our engineers choose to work from coworking spaces like WeWork. It's entirely their decision and I guess they miss the atmosphere and social interaction of an office.
  - alanfalcon 9y ago
    Or they have kids (or spouses) too immature to respect the sanctity of the home office during working hours.
    - mathgeek 9y ago
      Not everyone has a home with a dedicated space to put a home office, either. When you have to work out of your bedroom, a distinct office away from home quickly becomes useful. Not every problem with remote work and distractions is a result of personality flaws.
    - busterarm 9y ago
      Having previously worked at home for 5 years consecutively, I can confirm that it's entirely this.
  - bootcampjs 9y ago
    And do they rent a private office or a 30-seat conference room with 29 other people already in it?
    - markbnj 9y ago
      I don't know for sure but when I have met with them on zoom it sure doesn't seem private.
gxs 9y ago
One unintended consequence of cramming 3-4x the amount of people into a building designed in the 60s/70s for offices is the influx of traffic. On top of that, parking becomes very problematic. On top of that bathrooms and kitchens are harder to maintain, though admittedly those can be more easily remodeled. May not be a huge deal in the city, but definitely in a lot of office parks in the 'burbs I've been in.
- QAPereo 9y ago
  Silicon Valley: Welcome To The Gongsi Fong.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]
sbov 9y ago
I've never worked at a WeWork, but I've worked at shared office spaces before and I never had issues with the other people renting offices. Maybe it's the clientele WeWork attracts.
btbuildem 9y ago
| Overhead lights that switch off after a certain time if no motion is detected. I have even had this happen to me in the toilets :-) Ah, so you're the guy on his phone in the toilet, occupying a stall for way longer than necessary, while others have to wait. Thanks, buddy.
- Kluny 9y ago
  Hey, if someone is hiding in the toilet with their phone, there's a real good chance that they need the isolation more than they need the toilet.
  - btgeekboy 9y ago
    Not necessarily. Some guys can’t unglue their faces from their phones long enough to use a urinal either.
    - loblollyboy 9y ago
      the subject matter caused me to read that completely wrong
- smelendez 9y ago
  I've seen this too. I think it's probably an ADA violation, because it must cause completely unnecessary problems for people with mobility issues (not everyone can easily wave their arms around over their head while using the restroom). Edit: I actually know nothing about the legal nuances of the ADA, but it certainly seems to violate the generally understood spirit of the law.
  - sleepybrett 9y ago
    We have this in our normal office, but it isn't motion detection it's sound and it's only in "power saving" mode after normal office hours. So if you are working late and going to be in the bathroom for more than 5 minutes you have to remember to clear your throat every few minutes.
acd 9y ago
I think open shared office spaces are an effect of high rents in Sillicon valley and major capital cities. Startups having limited capital rarther spending it on employees salaries getting more head count. Shared space is not effective for concentrating during coding. I doubt shared spaces has been evaluated for effectiveness versus personal office. Shared spaces may be a cause of people working remote.
- pavel_lishin 9y ago
  Is there any advantage to a shared space? It seems like the sort of solution where you're working solo anyway, so there's no reason to have the team all there...
  - cwkoss 9y ago
    For small teams, the ability for people to jump into a conversation which began without them can have value. If you are a 6-person team, and when two engineers say "Hey, we'll probably need a design for this", the designer can hear this (if not in deep concentration) and join the conversation without any slack messages needed. This sort of 'free triage' has some value, not sure if it's net advantage when accounting for distraction costs though. Price is probably the clearest advantage: you can fit more people into an office without walls.
    - pavel_lishin 9y ago
      Sorry, I didn't mean an open office space - I mean literally a shared space, where you hotel desks, etc., and are surrounded by non-employees.
      - cwkoss 9y ago
        If you're solo programming, can be nice to have other people to have lunch with or discuss technical problems, but depends a lot on the atmosphere of the shared space and how sociable you are.
- OnlyRepliesToBS 9y ago
olivermarks 9y ago
I was just meeting/working at the largest WeWork anywhere, in Moorgate London. I like the atmosphere, my 'but' would be noise levels. It only takes one loud/noisy neighbour and your concentration is gone. Multiples of that makes it hard to have a meeting, where you may well also be disrupting someone else's day by making too much noise. Therefore more sound proofing is needed...
- jclardy 9y ago
  I work remote and regularly work from coffee shops where the noise level is high. I find I am quite able to block out the noise/distractions fine in that environment. I also go into the office occasionally (which is an open layout) and my productivity plummets. Less so because of the noise, but more so because the conversations being had around me have some relevance to me. And if I can help clarify something than I will interject. But the problem for me isn't noise, it is relevant noise where I subconsciously listen for something useful. Also with that you have people coming up to your and asking questions, because there is no indicator of "I'm busy right now" like a closed door in an office.
- deleted 9y ago
  [deleted]
otakucode 9y ago
People working from home is not a failure of modern office design. It is a failure of the core concept of the office itself. It no longer has value to offer. Originally, factories were necessary because physical colocation of workers was physically necessary. It was a sacrifice, an overhead taken on that created its own problems but which paid for them in overall benefit. Those benefits are now gone. Offices are now dead weight, an inefficiency that will be eliminated (as will be the unfortunate few barnacles who cling to their underbelly and previously solved some of the problems offices invented). Maybe not tomorrow, but eventually they will. They destroy value, and add none.
doctorRetro 9y ago
I spent nine and a half years with my own office (right out of school, too; I was quite lucky to have that) and while it wasn't much, it was mine. I then moved to a much better position with a more open concept. Not ultra-trendy-start-up open, but still with nine people in one room. The effect on my ability to concentrate has been very noticeable. If there is more than one conversation going on in the room, I need to get up and leave until it's over; I can't accomplish anything. I wouldn't go back to my previous position for anything, but I do miss my office.
jack9 9y ago
I was very impressed by the WeWork offices in southern california. Modern, maze-like, soundproofed rooms, conference areas spread around (multiple floors). It was a little cumbersome to get in to with all the security, but was otherwise delightful.
diiaann 9y ago
We have a "private" office in a WeWork. For me the worst part is the desk itself, it's totally substandard as a task desk. Same with the chairs, people joke about the college analogy but I had better desking as a college student. Secondly, a lot of the interior decisions are questionable, such as the pendant light that casts glare on my monitor. Also the music in the common areas is irritating and I even like some of the songs they play.
- mighty_bander 9y ago
  The WeWork environment is a nightmare. Fishtank offices, music they must buy by the MB blasted all over the place... and they charge as much as a nice private office in some corner of a larger business. All to be surrounded by hipsters with two-person marketing firms and no business plan. I assume they're going to help with networking. A basement is an infinitely better workspace.
smoe 9y ago
"Instead [at lunch] you will sit with your own company teammates, so that you can talk freely about your current projects and issues." What seems more hellish to me, is teammates that can't shut up constantly talking about work during breaks. While I see problems with shared office spaces, exchange with or people from sometimes completely different domains during breaks is the biggest plus for me. At least from experience in Switzerland and Colombia.
- dijit 9y ago
  I apologise I'm super guilty of this, I don't like small talk and share next to no common interests with colleagues. What would you prefer?
- ferentchak 9y ago
  Where were you in Colombia? I have been day dreaming of an extended trip there and would love to know about your experiences. My email is my username at gmail if that's easier for you. Thanks in advance
FussyZeus 9y ago
It seems like every study and every data point is all saying the same thing: with exceptions made for meetings and occasional gatherings when physical proximity actually matters the vast majority of tech workers prefer to telecommute themselves, are more productive when telecommuting, it's obviously cheaper for the company to not rent absurd amounts of space where they can pay employees to be physically present and less productive, etc. So why exactly are we still having offices at all? Seems like if I were going to start a business today, I'd occasionally rent a meeting room and otherwise not have any real estate actually connected to it, aside from maybe a server room in my home or something. Why are we so obsessed with having physical locations for companies? Is this just a fad that won't die?
tomcooks 9y ago
I sympathize with the author, open spaces were invented to function as a hipster panopticon and to maximize landlord gains. But these rants sound very passive aggressive. Maybe it's a cultural difference which makes it harder for me to understand, but can't you just ask to turn on/off the heating, ask the dog owner not to let their animal invade your space, ask the office owner to alert you about repairs, etc.? A simple solution i found to this problem is to work at old people cafes, or better yet in a retirement house. Extra cozy, extra safe, nobody disturbs you, you get free cake/coffee/tea, freelance gigs and the occasional invite to date their daughters
- alphadevx 9y ago
  I have complained about some of these issues, but been ignored. I mentioned that in the blog entry. I really don't think it should be my job to roam around the building, asking people to keep the noise down, take their dogs back, stop hammering etc... * Edit for typo

70 points by alphadevx 9y ago

Not that I disagree with the specifics here, but I think there's a happy medium to find. Individual boxed offices for every employee is not efficient use of space most of time. While it's popular to kvetch about open plan offices now, when the pendulum swings back there's plenty to complain about the isolation and dead air of a private room (most are no bigger than closets). Personally, I think the move towards working from home is tremendous. Perhaps it is a failure of office, but maybe that's okay. Offices are something of a hold-over from the days of the Empire State Building and insurance companies with 10,000 employees processing hand written forms. Maybe open plan offices with the expectation that most folks wont spend all their time there is a better default?

advisedwang 9y ago
This blog post is complaining about office space shared with other companies in the Style of WeWork, not open plan office spaces.
- secstate 9y ago
  My bad ... I tldr the whole thing and didn't get to the WeWork part :( #readerfail

megaman22 9y ago

I can't imagine such a work situation appealing to anybody other than extreme penny-pinchers, or maybe fresh grads, straight out of colleges. This sounds exactly like trying to get work done in a university library or study hall. If you've never known anything better, or you're the kind of person that needs that social stimuli, I can imagine you might think it was normal enough; I couldn't do it then; I'd work alone in my room or buried in the stacks. And now? Forget about it.

markbnj 9y ago
I work for a fully-remote company and a number of our engineers choose to work from coworking spaces like WeWork. It's entirely their decision and I guess they miss the atmosphere and social interaction of an office.
- alanfalcon 9y ago
  Or they have kids (or spouses) too immature to respect the sanctity of the home office during working hours.
  - mathgeek 9y ago
    Not everyone has a home with a dedicated space to put a home office, either. When you have to work out of your bedroom, a distinct office away from home quickly becomes useful. Not every problem with remote work and distractions is a result of personality flaws.
  - busterarm 9y ago
    Having previously worked at home for 5 years consecutively, I can confirm that it's entirely this.
- bootcampjs 9y ago
  And do they rent a private office or a 30-seat conference room with 29 other people already in it?
  - markbnj 9y ago
    I don't know for sure but when I have met with them on zoom it sure doesn't seem private.

gxs 9y ago

One unintended consequence of cramming 3-4x the amount of people into a building designed in the 60s/70s for offices is the influx of traffic. On top of that, parking becomes very problematic. On top of that bathrooms and kitchens are harder to maintain, though admittedly those can be more easily remodeled. May not be a huge deal in the city, but definitely in a lot of office parks in the 'burbs I've been in.

QAPereo 9y ago
Silicon Valley: Welcome To The Gongsi Fong.

deleted 9y ago

[deleted]

sbov 9y ago

I've never worked at a WeWork, but I've worked at shared office spaces before and I never had issues with the other people renting offices. Maybe it's the clientele WeWork attracts.

btbuildem 9y ago

| Overhead lights that switch off after a certain time if no motion is detected. I have even had this happen to me in the toilets :-) Ah, so you're the guy on his phone in the toilet, occupying a stall for way longer than necessary, while others have to wait. Thanks, buddy.

Kluny 9y ago
Hey, if someone is hiding in the toilet with their phone, there's a real good chance that they need the isolation more than they need the toilet.
- btgeekboy 9y ago
  Not necessarily. Some guys can’t unglue their faces from their phones long enough to use a urinal either.
  - loblollyboy 9y ago
    the subject matter caused me to read that completely wrong
smelendez 9y ago
I've seen this too. I think it's probably an ADA violation, because it must cause completely unnecessary problems for people with mobility issues (not everyone can easily wave their arms around over their head while using the restroom). Edit: I actually know nothing about the legal nuances of the ADA, but it certainly seems to violate the generally understood spirit of the law.
- sleepybrett 9y ago
  We have this in our normal office, but it isn't motion detection it's sound and it's only in "power saving" mode after normal office hours. So if you are working late and going to be in the bathroom for more than 5 minutes you have to remember to clear your throat every few minutes.

acd 9y ago

I think open shared office spaces are an effect of high rents in Sillicon valley and major capital cities. Startups having limited capital rarther spending it on employees salaries getting more head count. Shared space is not effective for concentrating during coding. I doubt shared spaces has been evaluated for effectiveness versus personal office. Shared spaces may be a cause of people working remote.

pavel_lishin 9y ago
Is there any advantage to a shared space? It seems like the sort of solution where you're working solo anyway, so there's no reason to have the team all there...
- cwkoss 9y ago
  For small teams, the ability for people to jump into a conversation which began without them can have value. If you are a 6-person team, and when two engineers say "Hey, we'll probably need a design for this", the designer can hear this (if not in deep concentration) and join the conversation without any slack messages needed. This sort of 'free triage' has some value, not sure if it's net advantage when accounting for distraction costs though. Price is probably the clearest advantage: you can fit more people into an office without walls.
  - pavel_lishin 9y ago
    Sorry, I didn't mean an open office space - I mean literally a shared space, where you hotel desks, etc., and are surrounded by non-employees.
    - cwkoss 9y ago
      If you're solo programming, can be nice to have other people to have lunch with or discuss technical problems, but depends a lot on the atmosphere of the shared space and how sociable you are.
OnlyRepliesToBS 9y ago

olivermarks 9y ago

I was just meeting/working at the largest WeWork anywhere, in Moorgate London. I like the atmosphere, my 'but' would be noise levels. It only takes one loud/noisy neighbour and your concentration is gone. Multiples of that makes it hard to have a meeting, where you may well also be disrupting someone else's day by making too much noise. Therefore more sound proofing is needed...

jclardy 9y ago
I work remote and regularly work from coffee shops where the noise level is high. I find I am quite able to block out the noise/distractions fine in that environment. I also go into the office occasionally (which is an open layout) and my productivity plummets. Less so because of the noise, but more so because the conversations being had around me have some relevance to me. And if I can help clarify something than I will interject. But the problem for me isn't noise, it is relevant noise where I subconsciously listen for something useful. Also with that you have people coming up to your and asking questions, because there is no indicator of "I'm busy right now" like a closed door in an office.
deleted 9y ago
[deleted]

otakucode 9y ago

People working from home is not a failure of modern office design. It is a failure of the core concept of the office itself. It no longer has value to offer. Originally, factories were necessary because physical colocation of workers was physically necessary. It was a sacrifice, an overhead taken on that created its own problems but which paid for them in overall benefit. Those benefits are now gone. Offices are now dead weight, an inefficiency that will be eliminated (as will be the unfortunate few barnacles who cling to their underbelly and previously solved some of the problems offices invented). Maybe not tomorrow, but eventually they will. They destroy value, and add none.

doctorRetro 9y ago

I spent nine and a half years with my own office (right out of school, too; I was quite lucky to have that) and while it wasn't much, it was mine. I then moved to a much better position with a more open concept. Not ultra-trendy-start-up open, but still with nine people in one room. The effect on my ability to concentrate has been very noticeable. If there is more than one conversation going on in the room, I need to get up and leave until it's over; I can't accomplish anything. I wouldn't go back to my previous position for anything, but I do miss my office.

jack9 9y ago

I was very impressed by the WeWork offices in southern california. Modern, maze-like, soundproofed rooms, conference areas spread around (multiple floors). It was a little cumbersome to get in to with all the security, but was otherwise delightful.

diiaann 9y ago

We have a "private" office in a WeWork. For me the worst part is the desk itself, it's totally substandard as a task desk. Same with the chairs, people joke about the college analogy but I had better desking as a college student. Secondly, a lot of the interior decisions are questionable, such as the pendant light that casts glare on my monitor. Also the music in the common areas is irritating and I even like some of the songs they play.

mighty_bander 9y ago
The WeWork environment is a nightmare. Fishtank offices, music they must buy by the MB blasted all over the place... and they charge as much as a nice private office in some corner of a larger business. All to be surrounded by hipsters with two-person marketing firms and no business plan. I assume they're going to help with networking. A basement is an infinitely better workspace.

smoe 9y ago

"Instead [at lunch] you will sit with your own company teammates, so that you can talk freely about your current projects and issues." What seems more hellish to me, is teammates that can't shut up constantly talking about work during breaks. While I see problems with shared office spaces, exchange with or people from sometimes completely different domains during breaks is the biggest plus for me. At least from experience in Switzerland and Colombia.

dijit 9y ago
I apologise I'm super guilty of this, I don't like small talk and share next to no common interests with colleagues. What would you prefer?
ferentchak 9y ago
Where were you in Colombia? I have been day dreaming of an extended trip there and would love to know about your experiences. My email is my username at gmail if that's easier for you. Thanks in advance

FussyZeus 9y ago

It seems like every study and every data point is all saying the same thing: with exceptions made for meetings and occasional gatherings when physical proximity actually matters the vast majority of tech workers prefer to telecommute themselves, are more productive when telecommuting, it's obviously cheaper for the company to not rent absurd amounts of space where they can pay employees to be physically present and less productive, etc. So why exactly are we still having offices at all? Seems like if I were going to start a business today, I'd occasionally rent a meeting room and otherwise not have any real estate actually connected to it, aside from maybe a server room in my home or something. Why are we so obsessed with having physical locations for companies? Is this just a fad that won't die?

tomcooks 9y ago

I sympathize with the author, open spaces were invented to function as a hipster panopticon and to maximize landlord gains. But these rants sound very passive aggressive. Maybe it's a cultural difference which makes it harder for me to understand, but can't you just ask to turn on/off the heating, ask the dog owner not to let their animal invade your space, ask the office owner to alert you about repairs, etc.? A simple solution i found to this problem is to work at old people cafes, or better yet in a retirement house. Extra cozy, extra safe, nobody disturbs you, you get free cake/coffee/tea, freelance gigs and the occasional invite to date their daughters

alphadevx 9y ago
I have complained about some of these issues, but been ignored. I mentioned that in the blog entry. I really don't think it should be my job to roam around the building, asking people to keep the noise down, take their dogs back, stop hammering etc... * Edit for typo