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One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. No it isn't. I said that you eith

by pg 16y ago

One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. No it isn't. I said that you either need that or to pay people a lot or to be in an interesting industry where there are no competitors who have hacker cultures. If Apple doesn't have a hacker culture, then it would probably be an example of the latter.

baguasquirrel 16y ago
I'm not sure it's that either. All of the Apple folks I know are pretty fanatical about the mantra of design. They are motivated to be good hackers because they have a strong desire to make beautiful products, rather than the other way around. Although this may not be as nice as a hacker-centric culture (if you are a hacker), it is still leagues better than an utterly non-hacker centric culture, because the devs are respected for what they do at Apple. This seems to be a critical difference necessary for producing great products.
dasil003 16y ago
To respond to your "If", I think Apple clearly does have a hacker culture. Even if we say it's a cult of Steve Jobs, I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker. Two essential qualities of good hackers is an abundant ability to synthesize elegant solutions from disparate details, and a desire to create great things. Jobs may not write code but he clearly has these two qualities. So even if Apple does not have an engineer-centric culture, a design culture driven by Jobs can be directly compatible. You see the differences of course, in the products Google and Apple make, but I think the point is that great hackers can work at Apple because they can get behind Jobs vision. Contrast this with a "suit-driven" company where decisions are made by looking at statistics and market research, and executives strategize about how to maximize sales based on the superficial product understanding they have. Even worse, places where you actually have people in power who couldn't give a crap about the product as long as they have a $500k+ salary rolling in every year.
- toddheasley 16y ago
  "I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker." Exactly. Apple isn't really about winning or losing; they're rewriting the game. Does it really get more "hackerly" than that?
  - spokey 16y ago
    I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think we should be careful that "hacker" doesn't lose meaning altogether. This thread is coming close to defining "hacking" as simply "winning". That is, if it works, it's hackerly, if it doesn't, it isn't.
    - toddheasley 16y ago
      The winning/losing framing is from the essay itself. If anything, this thread is coming closer to defining "hacking" as not simply "writing code." The question is whether or not Apple has a hacker culture, since one could argue that, while Apple's software tends to be great, it's a byproduct of their obsession with beautiful products, rather than their singular focus. I'm suggesting that, if anything, the tendency on Hacker News is to define "hacking" as simply "writing code," whereas, I think it's more about the intent. You could argue, very easily, that Y Combinator is hacking venture capital -- or that Apple is hacking the entire ecosystem around their products.
      - spokey 16y ago
        I agree that "hacking" connotes more than simply "coding". I'm not going to venture more complete definition here, but I think a lot of the themes around "unix culture" (e.g., small pieces loosely joined), open source (e.g. bazaar vs. cathedral approach to design and architecture), and even agile methodologies (e.g. "the simplest thing that could possibly work") could apply. But there's more to it than that. From this perspective, I agree that you could easily characterize Y Combinator as "hacking" VC. I just don't see what Apple is doing as hacking. In fact, in some ways it seems to me that Apple is doing the opposite of hacking (or at least trying to give that impression). Apple seems to want to create an impression of "intelligent design" around their products--they've got it all figured out and are delivering it to you complete, fully-formed and flawless. To my mind "hacking" connotes a more evolutionary approach: let's just try this and iterate. This isn't a value judgement on either approach, I just have a hard time aligning Apple's behaviour as an organization with my personal understanding of "hackerly".

by pg 16y ago

baguasquirrel 16y ago

I'm not sure it's that either. All of the Apple folks I know are pretty fanatical about the mantra of design. They are motivated to be good hackers because they have a strong desire to make beautiful products, rather than the other way around. Although this may not be as nice as a hacker-centric culture (if you are a hacker), it is still leagues better than an utterly non-hacker centric culture, because the devs are respected for what they do at Apple. This seems to be a critical difference necessary for producing great products.

dasil003 16y ago

To respond to your "If", I think Apple clearly does have a hacker culture. Even if we say it's a cult of Steve Jobs, I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker. Two essential qualities of good hackers is an abundant ability to synthesize elegant solutions from disparate details, and a desire to create great things. Jobs may not write code but he clearly has these two qualities. So even if Apple does not have an engineer-centric culture, a design culture driven by Jobs can be directly compatible. You see the differences of course, in the products Google and Apple make, but I think the point is that great hackers can work at Apple because they can get behind Jobs vision. Contrast this with a "suit-driven" company where decisions are made by looking at statistics and market research, and executives strategize about how to maximize sales based on the superficial product understanding they have. Even worse, places where you actually have people in power who couldn't give a crap about the product as long as they have a $500k+ salary rolling in every year.

toddheasley 16y ago
"I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker." Exactly. Apple isn't really about winning or losing; they're rewriting the game. Does it really get more "hackerly" than that?
- spokey 16y ago
  I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I think we should be careful that "hacker" doesn't lose meaning altogether. This thread is coming close to defining "hacking" as simply "winning". That is, if it works, it's hackerly, if it doesn't, it isn't.
  - toddheasley 16y ago
    The winning/losing framing is from the essay itself. If anything, this thread is coming closer to defining "hacking" as not simply "writing code." The question is whether or not Apple has a hacker culture, since one could argue that, while Apple's software tends to be great, it's a byproduct of their obsession with beautiful products, rather than their singular focus. I'm suggesting that, if anything, the tendency on Hacker News is to define "hacking" as simply "writing code," whereas, I think it's more about the intent. You could argue, very easily, that Y Combinator is hacking venture capital -- or that Apple is hacking the entire ecosystem around their products.
    - spokey 16y ago
      I agree that "hacking" connotes more than simply "coding". I'm not going to venture more complete definition here, but I think a lot of the themes around "unix culture" (e.g., small pieces loosely joined), open source (e.g. bazaar vs. cathedral approach to design and architecture), and even agile methodologies (e.g. "the simplest thing that could possibly work") could apply. But there's more to it than that. From this perspective, I agree that you could easily characterize Y Combinator as "hacking" VC. I just don't see what Apple is doing as hacking. In fact, in some ways it seems to me that Apple is doing the opposite of hacking (or at least trying to give that impression). Apple seems to want to create an impression of "intelligent design" around their products--they've got it all figured out and are delivering it to you complete, fully-formed and flawless. To my mind "hacking" connotes a more evolutionary approach: let's just try this and iterate. This isn't a value judgement on either approach, I just have a hard time aligning Apple's behaviour as an organization with my personal understanding of "hackerly".