9 ms·

2012 Wine bug "Drawing in Photoshop CS5 is almost impossible" now fixed

79 points by ashitlerferad 9y ago

snvzz 9y ago
So Photoshop CS5 being usable is a bug?
- jstanley 9y ago
  I read it that way too. I think they fixed a bug that made Photoshop unusable.
zazzi 9y ago
>drawing in photoshop cs5 is almost impossible usable?
martin_andrino 9y ago
I still wonder why Wine exists at all given that Windows 10 is an excellent OS - definitely more secure than their counterparts, and completely free.
- pjc50 9y ago
  But not Free, nor open source. And you still have to pay license fees for it, they're just normally borne by the OEM.
- Jonnax 9y ago
  How is it completely free?
- catmanjan 9y ago
  Free for personal use, enterprise licensed are pricey
  - vetinari 9y ago
    130 EUR (Home, OEM) or 160 EUR (Pro, OEM) is not something I would consider "free" for personal use.
- tzahola 9y ago
  * and filled with spyware
- danieldk 9y ago
  Besides Windows 10 telemetry being a privacy invasion, there are people who just prefer Linux or another Unix-like. Why would they switch to Windows? E.g. take me. I have used UNIX in some shape or form since 1994. I do not have anything against Windows. Technically the NT kernel is a marvel of engineering. But my brain is just fundamentally incompatible with Windows. The UNIX shell is ingrained, vim keys are ingrained, etc. definitely more secure than their counterparts Based on what criteria? And what counterpart are you comparing Windows to? Linux with X.org? Linux with Wayland and SELinux? macOS?
  - martin_andrino 9y ago
    >Besides Windows 10 telemetry being a privacy invasion Based on what criteria? Windows 10 never allowed you to login with passwordless root. Case closed.
    - exikyut 9y ago
      Windows 10, maybe not, but Windows Vista and XP and 2000, on the other hand...
      - Crespyl 9y ago
        > Windows 10, maybe not Yet.
  - wiz21c 9y ago
    >>> Why would they switch to Windows? What I love with my Linux is the total control I have over it. I can customize many things, have my own desktop environment while leaving other members of the family with KDE. I can update what I want, install apps with "aptitude" super easily and nobody ever asks me for my position, my age, phone number or email. Life is sooo quiet on my Linux. (Linux "breaks" (more exactly, userland stuff) more often than windows, but when it breaks I can do something about it and learn a thing or two while I fix it). Plus the community is vibrant. I'm lovin' it :-)
    - 9y ago
- adrianN 9y ago
  Because some people like Linux better but still need to run programs that are Windows-only.
- tokenizerrr 9y ago
  How do I run it on Linux? And no, that subsystem is not Linux.
- datenwolf 9y ago
  I do all of my electronics development work on Linux. In part also using nonfree software. This is not a matter of principle for me, but a matter of productivity and efficiency. - design circuit and PCB using EAGLE (nonfree – and BTW fuck that Autodesk subscription model). - perform circuit simulation using LTSpice. - compile firmware using a GCC toolchain – if using a MinGW port on Windows the linking times even for small images are abysmally long; I don't have time for that. - since recently: synthesize and route FPGAs using yosys and the iceStorm tools. - flash using OpenOCD. Not all of these tools work without flaws under Windows (neither as port nor in the WSL). Of all the tools above there's only one for which no Linux port exists: LTSpice. That's what I use Wine for.
  - martin_andrino 9y ago
    I bet you also use GIMP because you never understood how Photoshop is superior, right? sigh Open-source software is definitely inferior, why people keep ignoring this obvious fact?
    - exikyut 9y ago
      I completely agree that The GIMP and Inkscape are not a sight on Photochop. It's quite obvious - the former are developed by volunteer hobbyists, the latter by a paid team of engineers who have focused job titles. But that doesn't make them inferior, because user-interface consistency and ease of use are not the only metrics used in the real world to select software by.
      - Fnoord 9y ago
        What is better or worse should also include a cost/benefit analysis on the price of the product(s). That should include the cost of things like support, or the cost of in-house experts.
        vetinari 9y ago
        This is opening can of worms. When we factor in things like support, we have to consider not only cost, but also metrics like its quality and performance/price. If I had a dollar for every support ticket that got ignored for months or years... For community support, that can be fine, but when you are paying maintenance, that's unforgivable.
- realusername 9y ago
  I heard of this "Windows 10" indeed but does it run on Linux ?
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    Hyper-V can run a full-blown Linux kernel + OS with virtually no performance loss compared to native (on recent x86-64 hardware). There's also Windows Subsystem for Linux. You can get a full-blown OS like Ubuntu or SuSE that way. Well, that is, sans Linux kernel and sans X11.
    - ggus 9y ago
      and sans virtualization options.. no vagrant machines there : (
    - vetinari 9y ago
      > Hyper-V can run a full-blown Linux kernel + OS with virtually no performance loss compared to native That's true only for CPU scheduling, or losing CPU performance. For I/O, that's not true.
      - Const-me 9y ago
        It’s also true for IO, networking, and since recently even for GPUs. Intel’s VT-d & VT-c, AMD’s Vi.
        vetinari 9y ago
        When did that happen? I have a machine, that I'm going to switch from hyper-v to esxi, because the IO is abysmal.
        Const-me 9y ago
        It happened quite long ago, most Intel CPUs have VT-d since Nehalem (first gen of core i-s, 2008). However, even for modern systems, not all motherboards supports that. Also sometimes the setting is disabled by default in BIOS/UEFI.
- exikyut 9y ago
  I'm not sure how/where you're getting "and completely free" from. Windows 10 is not legally "infinitely free."
- Fnoord 9y ago
  I'll bite. Ignoring the obvious bait it is an interesting question. Windows 10, by default, comes with Microsoft spyware (or settings) which one has to remove. Running Windows 10 native isn't always possible or desirable. You can run WINE (and CrossOver, the commercial 'version' of WINE) on any platform including Linux (e.g. Ubuntu), macOS, and [recently] ChromeOS. Its also being used in more obscure OSes like *BSD and Illumos. And its a core part of ReactOS, which is basically a native FOSS Windows version which can run software backwards compatible. One could even run WINE on say a Raspberry Pi, together with QEMU. Also, not every architecture has a good HVM with virtually no performance loss. Think of ARM or older Intel/AMD CPUs (if you'd reapply the cooling paste these machines could still run just as new). Finally, if you'd run Windows 10 in a HVM you'd have a lot of additional bells and whistles. Though IIRC it is possible to just run one application in one window with say VMware or VirtualBox.
  - laumars 9y ago
    > One could even run WINE on say a Raspberry Pi, together with QEMU. I've seen retro gamers do just this for old Windows games thus saving them having to running a massively outdated and insecure version of Windows on custom built arcade cabs.
- Jetroid 9y ago
  This seems like a very naive view to me. This attack on Wine is by extension an attack on Linux, or otherwise I don't understand it. Wine exists for convenience for Linux users to use Software that has not been made available on Linux. Some advantages of Linux: * Can choose from a variety of window managers to suit your needs, from windows-like (Chalet, Zorin), to developer focussed (eg i3) * Linux is free. Windows 10 isn't, unlike you claim. Unless I'm been mislead, the Windows 10 for-free offer was simply an ugrade for existing Windows installs; not a free to all offering. It's therefore unavailable unless you've already 'bought-in' to the Microsoft ecosystem. * Linux has had updating figured out for years and lets you update in the background. Windows still pesters you do reboot. * Package managers are a much more efficient way to download and install software than any way I have seen on Windows. Some disadvantages of Windows 10: * Bundled with a lot of bloatware (from what I have seen) * Tracking / selling user data (PII? Not sure.) * Ads on the start menu Plus, with the existence of Linux, at least Microsoft doesn't have a full monopoly over the PC OS market. That said, I'd rather have myself be nestled firmly in the hands of a community than a corporation. I still wonder why Windows exists when Linux is such an excellent OS. /s
  - Fnoord 9y ago
    The "for free" offer was temporary, and has expired. That is what matters. It even worked on pirated versions. You could even upgrade say your Windows XP to a later version (pirated or not) and then upgrade to Windows 10, for free. You get a valid license that way. You paid 2-fold: one, you were an early adopter and therefore beta tester. Two, you paid with your privacy. The anti-spyware toolkits to remove the telemetry and other stuff weren't sophisticated. Plus, Microsoft went out of their way to sabotage these. Linux also requires reboots because of kernel upgrades. Microsoft maybe does it more, but its also due to bad programmed 3rd party apps. Windows has its own package manager these days. Apple's App Store and Microsoft's Windows Store are nothing more than a GUI for a package manager with some Web 2.0 (or 3.0) capabilities. Your disadvantages are fair enough, but they can all be circumvented with say O&O ShutUp or one of the many other applications which remove the spyware/bloatware/adware. What I f* ing hate about Windows is the lack of shell scripts and the need for Powershell and CMD.exe/*.bat. I don't want to use or (re)learn that shit. Microsoft could've adopted Bash but they went with Powershell instead. Windows Subsystem for Linux is decent, as was Cygwin, but it just isn't the same as native. The same's true for WINE. So I still prefer macOS; seems to be the best of both worlds. Although terrible for gaming. You want a gaming rig for that. Which could very well run on Linux, these days, given Steam's adoption plus WINE. Good summary though. Could use some nuances (which I did mention) but we gotta start somewhere.
pjc50 9y ago
This really does go to show that cache invalidation is a Hard Problem. And that GetAsyncKeyState() is a bit of a pain even for Windows developers.
fps_doug 9y ago
Too bad I don't have the time to read the long comment thread on there right now. Hopefully I will remember to do so after work. :) Instances like this are really interesting to me, as it seems early on in the thread the commit the broke Photoshop was identified, yet it took them 5 years to finally commit a fix. From the outside it's easy to say the wine devs are lazy/stupid for not having fixed it right away, but I suspect there is a story buried in there that tells why it wasn't that simple.
- pjc50 9y ago
  I skimmed it and saw at least two attempts that were backed out for various reasons.
  - uhhhhhhh 9y ago
    From a rudimentary reading. They introduced a state cache to fix conditions where applications poll continuously for certain states (mouse button press for example). This wasn't thread safe however, and multi-threaded applications could get a previous/incorrect state back from the cache and stop functioning as intended. This was highly visible for photoshop tools where you click and hold, as the separate mouse poller thread would get a state of 'button not clicked" and stop, or in some cases start/stop repeatedly giving a series of dots instead of a line. The patches submitted early were to disable the global cache, which while it fixed the multi-threaded use cases didn't fix the high-polling rate issue that the global cache was attempting to fix. The fix, years later, was to look at the global cache when changing state and invalidate it at the time of state change so any immediate calls to retrieve that state from the cache will not get the previous cached state. There was also another issue that came up in the middle of that thread that was unrelated it seems.
    - web007 9y ago
      > Regressions tend to be high priority for the devs though so this will be fixed eventually. "eventually" is right... This seems to be a failure on the part of the devs to prioritize. AFAIK code that causes a regression should be reverted and fixed properly, not left affecting the product for FIVE YEARS before finding a fix. The burden can not be on every use case to work around a bug that was introduced, the core "fix" is clearly a half-fix and should have been reverted on identification.
pooren 9y ago
Dude you guys using wine are fucking nutjobs
tambourine_man 9y ago
Post like that brings me back to earth every time I dream of running Linux only. I commend the work of everyone involved, people working for free on their spare time for the common benefit is great. But celebrating CS5 compatibility in late 2017… it's sobering.
- uhhhhhhh 9y ago
  To be fair, this is not for CS5 compatibility specifically (that was one of the more visible impacted apps), but multi-threaded applications that continuously poll for mouse state against a non-thread safe state-cache introduced in an earlier version. Also wine is not linux, and photoshop is not a linux program. If you want to run Linux only, then alternatives like krita, gimp etc.. exist that work natively. While I admit they often don't line up with adobe's tools yet, Krita's come a long way from what I've been told, and for a good portion of basic photoshop tasks (rgb only for the most part) you can use gimp quite effectively. As a non-graphic designer I use linux daily and love it. I only keep windows around for the few windows-only games I still play
  - notrly 9y ago
    > alternatives Don't know about Krita, but Gimp still (?) has no good CMYK support, so buh bai printing industry. Not an alternative.
    - uhhhhhhh 9y ago
      Krita + Gimp can cover nearly all use cases from my understanding. Yes, as I mentioned GIMP doesn't really have CMYK support so that's limited to RGB editing (web, digital etc..), however Krita has it and has come a long ways. So I'll double down on my statement that a good 20-30% of photoshop use cases can be covered by GIMP, with the exception of non-RBG requirements like printing that could possibly move to Krita or other tools.
    - bmn__ 9y ago
      That is incorrect, it exists since 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEGL#babl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEGL#babl http://www.gegl.org/babl/ http://www.gegl.org/babl/
rayalez 9y ago
I'm pretty happy with the way CS6 works with PlayOnLinux(Ubuntu 16.04, Wine 1.7.24-CS-0.9.1-DXHR). It's not perfect, but I have no problem getting the work done (mostly design). I wouldn't use it for drawing/painting though. If you're interested in doing digital art on linux - I highly recommend checking out Krita. I've discovered it a year ago and was blown away, if you're an artist - it does everything you may need, and works extremely well. ---- Slightly off topic - I'm also quite happy with using linux for the rest of my digital art needs: - Kdenlive is an excellent video editor. Works extremely well, and is pure joy to use. - Nuke and Houdini have native linux versions that work perfectly. I think Maya should work fine too, but I haven't tested that. - Silo 2.5(most recent version) works flawlessly under wine, and is perfect for any 3d modeling. - I don't develop games, but both Unreal and Unity work very well. The point is, several years ago you couldn't realistically use linux for professional 2D/3D work, now you totally can.
- ravenstine 9y ago
  Maya definitely works, but I've always needed to create symbolic links and other tweaks for it to work on non-fedora distrust. Can also confirm that Nuke works great on Linux, if you can afford the price tag.
userbinator 9y ago
Consider this an "outside opinion" from an external developer, but my first impression upon reading the thread is that I think the whole design of "key state caching" is wrong and a symptom of a bigger problem. Apps are polling GetAsyncKeyState() for good reason --- because they want that low-latency responsiveness which is important in situations like drawing with the mouse. Adding a cache defeats that, hence leading to bugs like this one. If your API implementation is slow, then profile and figure out how to make it faster because it obviously works fine in Windows. As the saying goes, "Never add another layer of complexity when your problem can be solved by removing and/or optimising the existing ones."
- majewsky 9y ago
  I thought the saying goes, "Every problem can be solved by adding another abstraction, except the problem of too many layers of abstraction." ;)
  - jcadam 9y ago
    That's not funny - I work in an enterprise Java shop :'(
- pjc50 9y ago
  The architecture is inherently different: it works fine in Windows because there's only one canonical key state and the operating system is looking after it. Wine, on the other hand, is running within X Windows, and the canonical key state belongs to X. It's in a different process and it might even be on a different computer. So either they have to poll it (slowly), arrange for asynchronous notifications (may not be possible and undoubtedly has similar conflicts with synchronous access), or poll it a limited amount and then cache it. The whole point of Wine is adapting one API to a fundamentally different one. It is the added layer of complexity. Edit: another discussion suggests the X by design does not allow an application to see keystrokes aimed at another window, nor is there a global hook mechanism. https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5623 https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5623
- fallingfrog 9y ago
b15h0p 9y ago
Slightly off topic: Does anyone here have CS6 running on the macOS >= Sierra? I was only able to find information that this is not possible because the launcher requires Java and Apple removed the JRE from macOS.
- nerdponx 9y ago
  It's pretty easy to install Java on Mac.

79 points by ashitlerferad 9y ago

snvzz 9y ago

So Photoshop CS5 being usable is a bug?

jstanley 9y ago
I read it that way too. I think they fixed a bug that made Photoshop unusable.

zazzi 9y ago

>drawing in photoshop cs5 is almost impossible usable?

martin_andrino 9y ago

I still wonder why Wine exists at all given that Windows 10 is an excellent OS - definitely more secure than their counterparts, and completely free.

pjc50 9y ago
But not Free, nor open source. And you still have to pay license fees for it, they're just normally borne by the OEM.
Jonnax 9y ago
How is it completely free?
catmanjan 9y ago
Free for personal use, enterprise licensed are pricey
- vetinari 9y ago
  130 EUR (Home, OEM) or 160 EUR (Pro, OEM) is not something I would consider "free" for personal use.
tzahola 9y ago
* and filled with spyware
danieldk 9y ago
Besides Windows 10 telemetry being a privacy invasion, there are people who just prefer Linux or another Unix-like. Why would they switch to Windows? E.g. take me. I have used UNIX in some shape or form since 1994. I do not have anything against Windows. Technically the NT kernel is a marvel of engineering. But my brain is just fundamentally incompatible with Windows. The UNIX shell is ingrained, vim keys are ingrained, etc. definitely more secure than their counterparts Based on what criteria? And what counterpart are you comparing Windows to? Linux with X.org? Linux with Wayland and SELinux? macOS?
- martin_andrino 9y ago
  >Besides Windows 10 telemetry being a privacy invasion Based on what criteria? Windows 10 never allowed you to login with passwordless root. Case closed.
  - exikyut 9y ago
    Windows 10, maybe not, but Windows Vista and XP and 2000, on the other hand...
    - Crespyl 9y ago
      > Windows 10, maybe not Yet.
- wiz21c 9y ago
  >>> Why would they switch to Windows? What I love with my Linux is the total control I have over it. I can customize many things, have my own desktop environment while leaving other members of the family with KDE. I can update what I want, install apps with "aptitude" super easily and nobody ever asks me for my position, my age, phone number or email. Life is sooo quiet on my Linux. (Linux "breaks" (more exactly, userland stuff) more often than windows, but when it breaks I can do something about it and learn a thing or two while I fix it). Plus the community is vibrant. I'm lovin' it :-)
  - 9y ago
adrianN 9y ago
Because some people like Linux better but still need to run programs that are Windows-only.
tokenizerrr 9y ago
How do I run it on Linux? And no, that subsystem is not Linux.
datenwolf 9y ago
I do all of my electronics development work on Linux. In part also using nonfree software. This is not a matter of principle for me, but a matter of productivity and efficiency. - design circuit and PCB using EAGLE (nonfree – and BTW fuck that Autodesk subscription model). - perform circuit simulation using LTSpice. - compile firmware using a GCC toolchain – if using a MinGW port on Windows the linking times even for small images are abysmally long; I don't have time for that. - since recently: synthesize and route FPGAs using yosys and the iceStorm tools. - flash using OpenOCD. Not all of these tools work without flaws under Windows (neither as port nor in the WSL). Of all the tools above there's only one for which no Linux port exists: LTSpice. That's what I use Wine for.
- martin_andrino 9y ago
  I bet you also use GIMP because you never understood how Photoshop is superior, right? sigh Open-source software is definitely inferior, why people keep ignoring this obvious fact?
  - exikyut 9y ago
    I completely agree that The GIMP and Inkscape are not a sight on Photochop. It's quite obvious - the former are developed by volunteer hobbyists, the latter by a paid team of engineers who have focused job titles. But that doesn't make them inferior, because user-interface consistency and ease of use are not the only metrics used in the real world to select software by.
    - Fnoord 9y ago
      What is better or worse should also include a cost/benefit analysis on the price of the product(s). That should include the cost of things like support, or the cost of in-house experts.
      - vetinari 9y ago
        This is opening can of worms. When we factor in things like support, we have to consider not only cost, but also metrics like its quality and performance/price. If I had a dollar for every support ticket that got ignored for months or years... For community support, that can be fine, but when you are paying maintenance, that's unforgivable.
realusername 9y ago
I heard of this "Windows 10" indeed but does it run on Linux ?
- Fnoord 9y ago
  Hyper-V can run a full-blown Linux kernel + OS with virtually no performance loss compared to native (on recent x86-64 hardware). There's also Windows Subsystem for Linux. You can get a full-blown OS like Ubuntu or SuSE that way. Well, that is, sans Linux kernel and sans X11.
  - ggus 9y ago
    and sans virtualization options.. no vagrant machines there : (
  - vetinari 9y ago
    > Hyper-V can run a full-blown Linux kernel + OS with virtually no performance loss compared to native That's true only for CPU scheduling, or losing CPU performance. For I/O, that's not true.
    - Const-me 9y ago
      It’s also true for IO, networking, and since recently even for GPUs. Intel’s VT-d & VT-c, AMD’s Vi.
      - vetinari 9y ago
        When did that happen? I have a machine, that I'm going to switch from hyper-v to esxi, because the IO is abysmal.
        Const-me 9y ago
        It happened quite long ago, most Intel CPUs have VT-d since Nehalem (first gen of core i-s, 2008). However, even for modern systems, not all motherboards supports that. Also sometimes the setting is disabled by default in BIOS/UEFI.
exikyut 9y ago
I'm not sure how/where you're getting "and completely free" from. Windows 10 is not legally "infinitely free."
Fnoord 9y ago
I'll bite. Ignoring the obvious bait it is an interesting question. Windows 10, by default, comes with Microsoft spyware (or settings) which one has to remove. Running Windows 10 native isn't always possible or desirable. You can run WINE (and CrossOver, the commercial 'version' of WINE) on any platform including Linux (e.g. Ubuntu), macOS, and [recently] ChromeOS. Its also being used in more obscure OSes like *BSD and Illumos. And its a core part of ReactOS, which is basically a native FOSS Windows version which can run software backwards compatible. One could even run WINE on say a Raspberry Pi, together with QEMU. Also, not every architecture has a good HVM with virtually no performance loss. Think of ARM or older Intel/AMD CPUs (if you'd reapply the cooling paste these machines could still run just as new). Finally, if you'd run Windows 10 in a HVM you'd have a lot of additional bells and whistles. Though IIRC it is possible to just run one application in one window with say VMware or VirtualBox.
- laumars 9y ago
  > One could even run WINE on say a Raspberry Pi, together with QEMU. I've seen retro gamers do just this for old Windows games thus saving them having to running a massively outdated and insecure version of Windows on custom built arcade cabs.
Jetroid 9y ago
This seems like a very naive view to me. This attack on Wine is by extension an attack on Linux, or otherwise I don't understand it. Wine exists for convenience for Linux users to use Software that has not been made available on Linux. Some advantages of Linux: * Can choose from a variety of window managers to suit your needs, from windows-like (Chalet, Zorin), to developer focussed (eg i3) * Linux is free. Windows 10 isn't, unlike you claim. Unless I'm been mislead, the Windows 10 for-free offer was simply an ugrade for existing Windows installs; not a free to all offering. It's therefore unavailable unless you've already 'bought-in' to the Microsoft ecosystem. * Linux has had updating figured out for years and lets you update in the background. Windows still pesters you do reboot. * Package managers are a much more efficient way to download and install software than any way I have seen on Windows. Some disadvantages of Windows 10: * Bundled with a lot of bloatware (from what I have seen) * Tracking / selling user data (PII? Not sure.) * Ads on the start menu Plus, with the existence of Linux, at least Microsoft doesn't have a full monopoly over the PC OS market. That said, I'd rather have myself be nestled firmly in the hands of a community than a corporation. I still wonder why Windows exists when Linux is such an excellent OS. /s
- Fnoord 9y ago
  The "for free" offer was temporary, and has expired. That is what matters. It even worked on pirated versions. You could even upgrade say your Windows XP to a later version (pirated or not) and then upgrade to Windows 10, for free. You get a valid license that way. You paid 2-fold: one, you were an early adopter and therefore beta tester. Two, you paid with your privacy. The anti-spyware toolkits to remove the telemetry and other stuff weren't sophisticated. Plus, Microsoft went out of their way to sabotage these. Linux also requires reboots because of kernel upgrades. Microsoft maybe does it more, but its also due to bad programmed 3rd party apps. Windows has its own package manager these days. Apple's App Store and Microsoft's Windows Store are nothing more than a GUI for a package manager with some Web 2.0 (or 3.0) capabilities. Your disadvantages are fair enough, but they can all be circumvented with say O&O ShutUp or one of the many other applications which remove the spyware/bloatware/adware. What I f* ing hate about Windows is the lack of shell scripts and the need for Powershell and CMD.exe/*.bat. I don't want to use or (re)learn that shit. Microsoft could've adopted Bash but they went with Powershell instead. Windows Subsystem for Linux is decent, as was Cygwin, but it just isn't the same as native. The same's true for WINE. So I still prefer macOS; seems to be the best of both worlds. Although terrible for gaming. You want a gaming rig for that. Which could very well run on Linux, these days, given Steam's adoption plus WINE. Good summary though. Could use some nuances (which I did mention) but we gotta start somewhere.

pjc50 9y ago

This really does go to show that cache invalidation is a Hard Problem. And that GetAsyncKeyState() is a bit of a pain even for Windows developers.

fps_doug 9y ago

Too bad I don't have the time to read the long comment thread on there right now. Hopefully I will remember to do so after work. :) Instances like this are really interesting to me, as it seems early on in the thread the commit the broke Photoshop was identified, yet it took them 5 years to finally commit a fix. From the outside it's easy to say the wine devs are lazy/stupid for not having fixed it right away, but I suspect there is a story buried in there that tells why it wasn't that simple.

pjc50 9y ago
I skimmed it and saw at least two attempts that were backed out for various reasons.
- uhhhhhhh 9y ago
  From a rudimentary reading. They introduced a state cache to fix conditions where applications poll continuously for certain states (mouse button press for example). This wasn't thread safe however, and multi-threaded applications could get a previous/incorrect state back from the cache and stop functioning as intended. This was highly visible for photoshop tools where you click and hold, as the separate mouse poller thread would get a state of 'button not clicked" and stop, or in some cases start/stop repeatedly giving a series of dots instead of a line. The patches submitted early were to disable the global cache, which while it fixed the multi-threaded use cases didn't fix the high-polling rate issue that the global cache was attempting to fix. The fix, years later, was to look at the global cache when changing state and invalidate it at the time of state change so any immediate calls to retrieve that state from the cache will not get the previous cached state. There was also another issue that came up in the middle of that thread that was unrelated it seems.
  - web007 9y ago
    > Regressions tend to be high priority for the devs though so this will be fixed eventually. "eventually" is right... This seems to be a failure on the part of the devs to prioritize. AFAIK code that causes a regression should be reverted and fixed properly, not left affecting the product for FIVE YEARS before finding a fix. The burden can not be on every use case to work around a bug that was introduced, the core "fix" is clearly a half-fix and should have been reverted on identification.

pooren 9y ago

Dude you guys using wine are fucking nutjobs

tambourine_man 9y ago

Post like that brings me back to earth every time I dream of running Linux only. I commend the work of everyone involved, people working for free on their spare time for the common benefit is great. But celebrating CS5 compatibility in late 2017… it's sobering.

uhhhhhhh 9y ago
To be fair, this is not for CS5 compatibility specifically (that was one of the more visible impacted apps), but multi-threaded applications that continuously poll for mouse state against a non-thread safe state-cache introduced in an earlier version. Also wine is not linux, and photoshop is not a linux program. If you want to run Linux only, then alternatives like krita, gimp etc.. exist that work natively. While I admit they often don't line up with adobe's tools yet, Krita's come a long way from what I've been told, and for a good portion of basic photoshop tasks (rgb only for the most part) you can use gimp quite effectively. As a non-graphic designer I use linux daily and love it. I only keep windows around for the few windows-only games I still play
- notrly 9y ago
  > alternatives Don't know about Krita, but Gimp still (?) has no good CMYK support, so buh bai printing industry. Not an alternative.
  - uhhhhhhh 9y ago
    Krita + Gimp can cover nearly all use cases from my understanding. Yes, as I mentioned GIMP doesn't really have CMYK support so that's limited to RGB editing (web, digital etc..), however Krita has it and has come a long ways. So I'll double down on my statement that a good 20-30% of photoshop use cases can be covered by GIMP, with the exception of non-RBG requirements like printing that could possibly move to Krita or other tools.
  - bmn__ 9y ago
    That is incorrect, it exists since 2011. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEGL#babl https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GEGL#babl http://www.gegl.org/babl/ http://www.gegl.org/babl/

rayalez 9y ago

I'm pretty happy with the way CS6 works with PlayOnLinux(Ubuntu 16.04, Wine 1.7.24-CS-0.9.1-DXHR). It's not perfect, but I have no problem getting the work done (mostly design). I wouldn't use it for drawing/painting though. If you're interested in doing digital art on linux - I highly recommend checking out Krita. I've discovered it a year ago and was blown away, if you're an artist - it does everything you may need, and works extremely well. ---- Slightly off topic - I'm also quite happy with using linux for the rest of my digital art needs: - Kdenlive is an excellent video editor. Works extremely well, and is pure joy to use. - Nuke and Houdini have native linux versions that work perfectly. I think Maya should work fine too, but I haven't tested that. - Silo 2.5(most recent version) works flawlessly under wine, and is perfect for any 3d modeling. - I don't develop games, but both Unreal and Unity work very well. The point is, several years ago you couldn't realistically use linux for professional 2D/3D work, now you totally can.

ravenstine 9y ago
Maya definitely works, but I've always needed to create symbolic links and other tweaks for it to work on non-fedora distrust. Can also confirm that Nuke works great on Linux, if you can afford the price tag.

userbinator 9y ago

Consider this an "outside opinion" from an external developer, but my first impression upon reading the thread is that I think the whole design of "key state caching" is wrong and a symptom of a bigger problem. Apps are polling GetAsyncKeyState() for good reason --- because they want that low-latency responsiveness which is important in situations like drawing with the mouse. Adding a cache defeats that, hence leading to bugs like this one. If your API implementation is slow, then profile and figure out how to make it faster because it obviously works fine in Windows. As the saying goes, "Never add another layer of complexity when your problem can be solved by removing and/or optimising the existing ones."

majewsky 9y ago
I thought the saying goes, "Every problem can be solved by adding another abstraction, except the problem of too many layers of abstraction." ;)
- jcadam 9y ago
  That's not funny - I work in an enterprise Java shop :'(
pjc50 9y ago
The architecture is inherently different: it works fine in Windows because there's only one canonical key state and the operating system is looking after it. Wine, on the other hand, is running within X Windows, and the canonical key state belongs to X. It's in a different process and it might even be on a different computer. So either they have to poll it (slowly), arrange for asynchronous notifications (may not be possible and undoubtedly has similar conflicts with synchronous access), or poll it a limited amount and then cache it. The whole point of Wine is adapting one API to a fundamentally different one. It is the added layer of complexity. Edit: another discussion suggests the X by design does not allow an application to see keystrokes aimed at another window, nor is there a global hook mechanism. https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5623 https://bugs.winehq.org/show_bug.cgi?id=5623
fallingfrog 9y ago

b15h0p 9y ago

Slightly off topic: Does anyone here have CS6 running on the macOS >= Sierra? I was only able to find information that this is not possible because the launcher requires Java and Apple removed the JRE from macOS.

nerdponx 9y ago
It's pretty easy to install Java on Mac.