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I don't know enough about what it's like inside Apple now to say. Certainly from what I've heard there used to be a hackerly culture in the past. I remember re

by pg 16y ago

I don't know enough about what it's like inside Apple now to say. Certainly from what I've heard there used to be a hackerly culture in the past. I remember reading how mystified and offended Gil Amelio was by it. But I don't know what things are like now. Is there anyone here who can talk about it? Is the atmos hackerly or corporate?

mrshoe 16y ago
It's neither. It's ship-great-product-y.
- adammichaelc 16y ago
  So it's hackerly...
  - mrshoe 16y ago
    No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. They often invent new technologies to enable their products, but that's very different from thinking primarily about technology (a mistake, I would argue, that Google is guilty of frequently). Taking as an example a project like Google Wave, I would even go as far as to say that a strong hacker culture and an obnoxious elitist culture of hiring only the best programmers can be serious detriments to a technology company. YMMV, but, culture-wise, I'd much rather build (and work for) an Apple than a Google. Edit in reply to your reply: I thought it was any company that needs to have good software. But even so, surely Apple doesn't pay significantly more than Google (a hacker-centric company) and surely they're in roughly the same domain (iOS/Android, iAd, etc.). I think the real problem is in your next sentence: Otherwise you can't attract good programmers to work in a suit-centric culture. That's a big false dichotomy. Sure, suit-centric technology companies will fail. And hacker-centric technology companies sometimes succeed. I think Apple shows that a culture that is neither suit-centirc nor hacker-centric is the best option of all. If many of your YC companies are trying to build great technology companies, they should take that to heart.
    - csmeder 16y ago
      Very good counter point. However, the few people I know that work at apple are good hackers. So maybe Apple is a cross between Design/Hacker culture. To me it seems optimal to balance the the Hacker culture with Designer culture. Kind of like a yin and yang. What are your thoughts PG? Doesn't design matter? Most YC funded web sites look very good. Isn't a design culture important to have?
      - equark 16y ago
        Steve Jobs has said as much. He often talks about how apple is "the intersection of technology and the liberal arts."
    - pg 16y ago
      One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. No it isn't. I said that you either need that or to pay people a lot or to be in an interesting industry where there are no competitors who have hacker cultures. If Apple doesn't have a hacker culture, then it would probably be an example of the latter.
      - baguasquirrel 16y ago
        I'm not sure it's that either. All of the Apple folks I know are pretty fanatical about the mantra of design. They are motivated to be good hackers because they have a strong desire to make beautiful products, rather than the other way around. Although this may not be as nice as a hacker-centric culture (if you are a hacker), it is still leagues better than an utterly non-hacker centric culture, because the devs are respected for what they do at Apple. This seems to be a critical difference necessary for producing great products.
      - dasil003 16y ago
        To respond to your "If", I think Apple clearly does have a hacker culture. Even if we say it's a cult of Steve Jobs, I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker. Two essential qualities of good hackers is an abundant ability to synthesize elegant solutions from disparate details, and a desire to create great things. Jobs may not write code but he clearly has these two qualities. So even if Apple does not have an engineer-centric culture, a design culture driven by Jobs can be directly compatible. You see the differences of course, in the products Google and Apple make, but I think the point is that great hackers can work at Apple because they can get behind Jobs vision. Contrast this with a "suit-driven" company where decisions are made by looking at statistics and market research, and executives strategize about how to maximize sales based on the superficial product understanding they have. Even worse, places where you actually have people in power who couldn't give a crap about the product as long as they have a $500k+ salary rolling in every year.
IdeaHamster 16y ago
It's a very hackerly culture (in some ways still living off the inheritance of Woz), but you won't ever hear about that for two reasons: 1. Secrecy is part of the culture. 2. Engineers work hard at Apple, and many teams are surprisingly small. There are no 20% projects at Apple because nobody has the time.
- nostrademons 16y ago
  2. That is not all that different from Google.
  - mortenjorck 16y ago
    Most Googlers I've talked to call it the 120% project.
- patrickk 16y ago
  It's very corporate where I work (not in Cupertino, so no surprise). But everyone I've come across works very hard, not just engineers. And I couldn't agree more about no-one having any time, many people bring their MacBooks home and continue sending emails late into the evening (GMT) to people in HQ in Cupertino (who are eight hours behind). EDIT: Going on the Apple jobs listing for Cupertino, there is plenty of openings for engineers. http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.searchJobs http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.s...
- barkingcat 16y ago
  At Apple, Steve Job's 20% project takes up 100% of your time.

by pg 16y ago

mrshoe 16y ago

It's neither. It's ship-great-product-y.

adammichaelc 16y ago
So it's hackerly...
- mrshoe 16y ago
  No, it's not. That gets at the very essence of my original comment. One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. I see Apple as a counterexample to this argument. And it's a counterexample that shouldn't be ignored. Apple is driven by design (industrial design, product design, graphic design). They think about products, not technology. They often invent new technologies to enable their products, but that's very different from thinking primarily about technology (a mistake, I would argue, that Google is guilty of frequently). Taking as an example a project like Google Wave, I would even go as far as to say that a strong hacker culture and an obnoxious elitist culture of hiring only the best programmers can be serious detriments to a technology company. YMMV, but, culture-wise, I'd much rather build (and work for) an Apple than a Google. Edit in reply to your reply: I thought it was any company that needs to have good software. But even so, surely Apple doesn't pay significantly more than Google (a hacker-centric company) and surely they're in roughly the same domain (iOS/Android, iAd, etc.). I think the real problem is in your next sentence: Otherwise you can't attract good programmers to work in a suit-centric culture. That's a big false dichotomy. Sure, suit-centric technology companies will fail. And hacker-centric technology companies sometimes succeed. I think Apple shows that a culture that is neither suit-centirc nor hacker-centric is the best option of all. If many of your YC companies are trying to build great technology companies, they should take that to heart.
  - csmeder 16y ago
    Very good counter point. However, the few people I know that work at apple are good hackers. So maybe Apple is a cross between Design/Hacker culture. To me it seems optimal to balance the the Hacker culture with Designer culture. Kind of like a yin and yang. What are your thoughts PG? Doesn't design matter? Most YC funded web sites look very good. Isn't a design culture important to have?
    - equark 16y ago
      Steve Jobs has said as much. He often talks about how apple is "the intersection of technology and the liberal arts."
  - pg 16y ago
    One of the assertions in the article is that a hacker culture is a necessary ingredient for a successful technology company. No it isn't. I said that you either need that or to pay people a lot or to be in an interesting industry where there are no competitors who have hacker cultures. If Apple doesn't have a hacker culture, then it would probably be an example of the latter.
    - baguasquirrel 16y ago
      I'm not sure it's that either. All of the Apple folks I know are pretty fanatical about the mantra of design. They are motivated to be good hackers because they have a strong desire to make beautiful products, rather than the other way around. Although this may not be as nice as a hacker-centric culture (if you are a hacker), it is still leagues better than an utterly non-hacker centric culture, because the devs are respected for what they do at Apple. This seems to be a critical difference necessary for producing great products.
    - dasil003 16y ago
      To respond to your "If", I think Apple clearly does have a hacker culture. Even if we say it's a cult of Steve Jobs, I don't think it's a far cry to say Jobs is a consumer product hacker and a bit of a market hacker. Two essential qualities of good hackers is an abundant ability to synthesize elegant solutions from disparate details, and a desire to create great things. Jobs may not write code but he clearly has these two qualities. So even if Apple does not have an engineer-centric culture, a design culture driven by Jobs can be directly compatible. You see the differences of course, in the products Google and Apple make, but I think the point is that great hackers can work at Apple because they can get behind Jobs vision. Contrast this with a "suit-driven" company where decisions are made by looking at statistics and market research, and executives strategize about how to maximize sales based on the superficial product understanding they have. Even worse, places where you actually have people in power who couldn't give a crap about the product as long as they have a $500k+ salary rolling in every year.

IdeaHamster 16y ago

It's a very hackerly culture (in some ways still living off the inheritance of Woz), but you won't ever hear about that for two reasons: 1. Secrecy is part of the culture. 2. Engineers work hard at Apple, and many teams are surprisingly small. There are no 20% projects at Apple because nobody has the time.

nostrademons 16y ago
2. That is not all that different from Google.
- mortenjorck 16y ago
  Most Googlers I've talked to call it the 120% project.
patrickk 16y ago
It's very corporate where I work (not in Cupertino, so no surprise). But everyone I've come across works very hard, not just engineers. And I couldn't agree more about no-one having any time, many people bring their MacBooks home and continue sending emails late into the evening (GMT) to people in HQ in Cupertino (who are eight hours behind). EDIT: Going on the Apple jobs listing for Cupertino, there is plenty of openings for engineers. http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.searchJobs http://jobs.apple.com/index.ajs?BID=1&method=mExternal.s...
barkingcat 16y ago
At Apple, Steve Job's 20% project takes up 100% of your time.