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While I understand what you’re saying I’d respectfully disagree in places. You point out that most of these ideas predate religion and I think most people hold

by entee 9y ago

While I understand what you’re saying I’d respectfully disagree in places. You point out that most of these ideas predate religion and I think most people hold the more backward ideas due to habit and overall culture rather than explicit religion. Also I believe that one of the most potent forces for greater acceptance for LGBT people has been that more and more people are coming out and that people realize, “oh hey that’s my daughter or my cousin”. I think it’s helpful also to recognize that while it is indisputably right that LGBT people have full equal rights and standing, that idea is relatively new to the broader discourse. It’s going to take a little time for it to fully sink in everywhere, the wrong perspective has a large historical head start. I firmly believe it will happen, just over 50 years ago we had explicit Jim Crow in the south. While there’s still a ways to go, it’s amazing how much progress we’ve made in such short time. But for that to happen I think we have to be a bit patient and willing to talk to people whose views we might find cringeworthy. You can’t persuade someone you’re not communicating with.

cmurf 9y ago
Tell the dead they should be a bit more patient. Most gays don't come out of the closet in religious families, they fear for their life for a reason. The mere fact those who do come out sometimes are a potent change for their families, proves how impotent the religion is when it comes to protecting those same LGBT who put their lives on the line when they come out. Just two days ago, a southern evangelical asserted to me, "literally gays brought about the end of nations, being gay should not be legal let alone gay marriage." Listen to a translation of this: Gay's are seditious, they are traitors to their country, they commit treason. In the U.S. the only crime that calls for the death penalty is treason. Considering this merely cringeworthy, needing patience and persuasion? I think the body count of dead LGBT, black, brown, women, children, Muslim, Jew, and many other minorities, is sufficiently high that no more such coddling should be on the agenda. Advocacy of violence and discrimination should be taken seriously, not suddenly papered over with calls to patience and persuasion just because it's backed by religious belief. Too many people in urban areas have no concept of violent religion and probably think it doesn't exist in America. Newsflash city people! You're ignorant! I for one am not amazed at all, I'm appalled and feel betrayed by how long the progress thus far has taken.
- entee 9y ago
  I'm sorry I really didn't mean to come off as dismissive. I have zero doubt of the murderous hatred for gay people (among many others), and the danger people face when they come out. I have many friends in the queer community, I don't in any way intend to minimize these things. The person you mention holds truly awful views. And I don't know what to tell you, except that at least some people can change. I've seen it myself and I'll cop to when I was younger being squeamish about gay marriage. A decade later I was jubilant when Obergefell came down. Was I a bad person then? Am I better person now? I'd say I wasn't then and I'm still just as imperfect. I just learned more, and although I am ashamed I was wrong, I'm glad I eventually got it right. Dan Savage gives as advice to people coming out to their families to give their relatives a year to be offensive. A year to ask the just plain ignorant questions. After that, there's a hard space to say, "you accept me or I'm out". Obviously that has its own problems in certain situations, but given the years he's been giving it, it sounds like its been working and it gives voice to the spirit of what I'm advocating. I think plenty of people hate the gays, the jews, the browns and whoever else. Plenty of those will never change, I can't defend those. But I think many more will, and I think we have to find a way to create the space for them to change without coming at them straight out of the gates with moral condemnation. Good people can be misguided, but they'll never come around if we start from, "you're evil". That said at some point, if you willfully refuse to see the light, there is an end to the conversation.

by entee 9y ago

cmurf 9y ago

Tell the dead they should be a bit more patient. Most gays don't come out of the closet in religious families, they fear for their life for a reason. The mere fact those who do come out sometimes are a potent change for their families, proves how impotent the religion is when it comes to protecting those same LGBT who put their lives on the line when they come out. Just two days ago, a southern evangelical asserted to me, "literally gays brought about the end of nations, being gay should not be legal let alone gay marriage." Listen to a translation of this: Gay's are seditious, they are traitors to their country, they commit treason. In the U.S. the only crime that calls for the death penalty is treason. Considering this merely cringeworthy, needing patience and persuasion? I think the body count of dead LGBT, black, brown, women, children, Muslim, Jew, and many other minorities, is sufficiently high that no more such coddling should be on the agenda. Advocacy of violence and discrimination should be taken seriously, not suddenly papered over with calls to patience and persuasion just because it's backed by religious belief. Too many people in urban areas have no concept of violent religion and probably think it doesn't exist in America. Newsflash city people! You're ignorant! I for one am not amazed at all, I'm appalled and feel betrayed by how long the progress thus far has taken.

entee 9y ago
I'm sorry I really didn't mean to come off as dismissive. I have zero doubt of the murderous hatred for gay people (among many others), and the danger people face when they come out. I have many friends in the queer community, I don't in any way intend to minimize these things. The person you mention holds truly awful views. And I don't know what to tell you, except that at least some people can change. I've seen it myself and I'll cop to when I was younger being squeamish about gay marriage. A decade later I was jubilant when Obergefell came down. Was I a bad person then? Am I better person now? I'd say I wasn't then and I'm still just as imperfect. I just learned more, and although I am ashamed I was wrong, I'm glad I eventually got it right. Dan Savage gives as advice to people coming out to their families to give their relatives a year to be offensive. A year to ask the just plain ignorant questions. After that, there's a hard space to say, "you accept me or I'm out". Obviously that has its own problems in certain situations, but given the years he's been giving it, it sounds like its been working and it gives voice to the spirit of what I'm advocating. I think plenty of people hate the gays, the jews, the browns and whoever else. Plenty of those will never change, I can't defend those. But I think many more will, and I think we have to find a way to create the space for them to change without coming at them straight out of the gates with moral condemnation. Good people can be misguided, but they'll never come around if we start from, "you're evil". That said at some point, if you willfully refuse to see the light, there is an end to the conversation.