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You say you want diversity of opinion because you are a "liberal" but mainstream liberalism has next to nothing to do with classical liberalism. Your average ur

You say you want diversity of opinion because you are a "liberal" but mainstream liberalism has next to nothing to do with classical liberalism. Your average urban, coastal "liberal" adheres to their orthodoxies with about the level openness to other opinions as a stereotypical religious zealot.

supernovae 9y ago
Without context what you are saying is meaningless. Sure, "liberals" seem closed minded in not accepting racism, bigotry or hate speech but in accepting people for who they are, it's hard to say their opinions are stereotypical at all... I mean the democrats/liberals/progressives agree to disagree more often than not.
- chmln 9y ago
  > racism, bigotry or hate speech The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse.
  - supernovae 9y ago
    how so? another comment without context.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      All right, here's some context. People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. (Source: Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years. I can't point you to a specific documentation of a specific event at the moment.) When that's the definition of "racist", then racism is indeed "nearly meaningless" - it's become such a broad term that it no longer means anything. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everything fits the definition... then nothing does."
      - mikebenfield 9y ago
        > Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years Have you been on a university campus recently? Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about. And if you only consume media that highlights those silly things and never actually visit a university and talk to young people, yeah, you can easily get a very negative view of what universities and academic culture are like. > People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. Well, it is inherently oppressive, as is just about every other traditional culture, and citizens have to be constantly vigilant about to make sure that oppressive nature is held at bay as much as possible. Can there really be any doubt about this? Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be.
        pj_mukh 9y ago
        "Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about." My god. I really wish more people would point this out. The hysteria about University politics is such a bore now.
        meowface 9y ago
        >Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. It varies from university to university. Most universities don't experience anything like the authoritarian-left chaos at Evergreen [1], but you can find student organizations at universities all over America who hold these far-left beliefs. We had no scandals like this at my east coast university, but I'd estimate at least 10-20% of the student population holds extreme beliefs of this nature. You could see inklings of it on campus in the form of posters and group demonstrations and events. I have no statistics about the political leanings of universities in general, but if even 10 big universities have these issues (and it's definitely more than 10), then it's worth discussing. At my university, even though it didn't seem to lean that much to the left, holding conservative views was definitely a stigma. Conservative students were routinely mocked and ostracized. And this isn't some self-pity, as I consider myself to have been and to be pretty left-wing on most social and economic issues. I just saw what people on the opposite side had to deal with. >Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be. Pointing to proof of a problem isn't proof that all opponents of that problem are justified. The position of many university campus students, and some professors, is not merely that racism is still a serious problem in the US but that non-minority groups have effectively been born with some innate sin which they must seek constant penance for due to historical power dynamics. Connected to this is a set of very tribalistic and insular beliefs not unlike what you see in alt-right communities. It's anti-intellectual and it's encouraging college students to view the world in a very narrow way. Oppression of minority groups was and is a dire issue, but it's important not to overcorrect. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-tur...
    - CasteTraitor 9y ago
      A perfect example would be the immigration debate. I believe if you are in this country ilegally you should be deported. Apparantly, according to many many liberals, that makes me a "racist." Of course race has nothing to do with it, I couldn't care less what color you are , if you're here illegally you need to be deported. And it's not just me, but I constantly see others who have the same beliefs getting accused of being racist. And that's just one example. I've seen people be accused of being sexist just because they didn't like Hilary Clinton. It was actually really common for liberals to accuse opponents of Clinton of being sexist regardless of the total absence of any evidence of actual sexism.
      - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        > I constantly see others who have the same beliefs getting accused of being racist Probably because of the massive amount of racist rhetoric used in support of that position. It's not an inherently racist position, but when such a large portion of arguments in favor of the position use racist rhetoric it's hard to avoid being lumped in with those arguments.
        ithilglin909 9y ago
        Lumping totally dis-similar arguments together is just intellectually lazy, which is most of my problem with the use of words like "racist, sexist, etc." They have valid applications, but are often used to circumvent rational debate.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Most people are intellectually lazy. Better get used to it. If you want your arguments to be consistently distinguished from the racist ones you will have to put in more effort to make them seem more distinct.
        ithilglin909 9y ago
        You don't even know what my arguments would be!
  - abiox 9y ago
    > The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse i do think it's sometimes thrown around unfairly. however, from the other direction the criteria for such is nearly impossible. for some, racism 'doesn't exist anymore' and short of explicitly saying 'i am a legit racist for realz' everything can be explained away. be it 'race realism', stat framing or a variety of other things. part of this is the issue of what it means 'to be a racist'. some people would (for example) happily endorse laws that would disproportionately burden hispanic americans and harass hispanics of any sort, but claim they're 'not racist' because they 'don't care about color'. basically this dialectic allows real world racist activity through deferring the assessment of racism to a fundamentally unknowable and unprovable internal state.
- bluthru 9y ago
  >Without context what you are saying is meaningless. For example, it's beyond the pale to have a conversation about how demographics matter and that social science tells us that diversity is probably a net loss: http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/ http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/... It reminds me of people who outright deny climate change.
  - marinman 9y ago
    > that social science tells us that diversity is probably a net loss: The author of that study doesn't come to that conclusion: https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-says-his-research-was-twisted/30357 https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-say...
    - bluthru 9y ago
      Thanks for the link. >his “extensive research and experience confirm the substantial benefits of diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, to our society.” The benefit of diversity is diversity? It seems like the disadvantages of diversity are observed and tangible, while the potential upsides of diversity aren't defined or proven.
- nailer 9y ago
  I find a lot of US faux-'liberals' to be quite bigoted in terms of acting like measures against against illegal immigration from Mexico somehow are racist - implying all Mexicans are illegal immigrants. Similarly the same people speak as if all black people are working class, all white people are middle class, etc., which is also bigoted.
  - supernovae 9y ago
    I can't agree with this at all because it doesn't reflect reality, in fact, is a projection of how conservatives "feel" so they can continue to ignore reality. Immigration isn't a black and white issue. Maybe if you feel that what liberals are implying has some merit of truth to upset you, then you would look at how to change those signals rather than pretend they're not there.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
We need different words (or perhaps phrases) for "mainstream (US) liberalism" and "classical liberalism". The problem is that "liberalism", without modifiers, used to mean "classical liberalism", and now most often means "mainstream liberalism". This leads to confusion (sometimes deliberate, as mainstream liberals try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability that classical liberalism earned).
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
Yes, and your average Bayesian reasoner also "adheres to their orthodoxy" with little "openness to other opinions". Opinions don't move Bayesians. Opinions shouldn't move Bayesians. Stop demanding that other people shift their priors towards yours and show evidence.
rorykoehler 9y ago
I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. They can say whatever they want, I don't really care, but I reserve the right to mock them and discriminate against them for being dangerous idiots. Being open to new and alternative thoughts is not the same as allowing unrestricted hate from racist triggered cowards. If I deem an idea as non-constructive or even destructive I will discard it. Alt-right ideas and ideologies are dead, a hangover from times past. What we are experiencing is the final purge, the virus is rearing up again like a cold sore and the collective immune system of society will stamp it out for good. This is a necessary yet uncomfortable inevitability which is why I'm perfectly ok with it.
- sintaxi 9y ago
  > I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. All more the reason to shine a light on these ideas. They won't hold under scrutiny. Blind obedience is not a reasonable expectation of people. We need to understand how our civilization got to where it is while others failed. There really is no such thing as "final purge". If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    >If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end. This is a natural process of any organically evolving system. It keeps what helps it and expels what doesn't. I agree there will never be an end to problems and division. The nature of them will simply change. Regarding shining light on the ideas... this is pointless. First they come from an emotional place so discussing them with logic won't work. Second I could argue with flat-earthers all day but what's the point.
    - 9y ago

supernovae 9y ago

Without context what you are saying is meaningless. Sure, "liberals" seem closed minded in not accepting racism, bigotry or hate speech but in accepting people for who they are, it's hard to say their opinions are stereotypical at all... I mean the democrats/liberals/progressives agree to disagree more often than not.

chmln 9y ago
> racism, bigotry or hate speech The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse.
- supernovae 9y ago
  how so? another comment without context.
  - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
    All right, here's some context. People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. (Source: Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years. I can't point you to a specific documentation of a specific event at the moment.) When that's the definition of "racist", then racism is indeed "nearly meaningless" - it's become such a broad term that it no longer means anything. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everything fits the definition... then nothing does."
    - mikebenfield 9y ago
      > Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years Have you been on a university campus recently? Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about. And if you only consume media that highlights those silly things and never actually visit a university and talk to young people, yeah, you can easily get a very negative view of what universities and academic culture are like. > People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. Well, it is inherently oppressive, as is just about every other traditional culture, and citizens have to be constantly vigilant about to make sure that oppressive nature is held at bay as much as possible. Can there really be any doubt about this? Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be.
      - pj_mukh 9y ago
        "Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about." My god. I really wish more people would point this out. The hysteria about University politics is such a bore now.
      - meowface 9y ago
        >Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. It varies from university to university. Most universities don't experience anything like the authoritarian-left chaos at Evergreen [1], but you can find student organizations at universities all over America who hold these far-left beliefs. We had no scandals like this at my east coast university, but I'd estimate at least 10-20% of the student population holds extreme beliefs of this nature. You could see inklings of it on campus in the form of posters and group demonstrations and events. I have no statistics about the political leanings of universities in general, but if even 10 big universities have these issues (and it's definitely more than 10), then it's worth discussing. At my university, even though it didn't seem to lean that much to the left, holding conservative views was definitely a stigma. Conservative students were routinely mocked and ostracized. And this isn't some self-pity, as I consider myself to have been and to be pretty left-wing on most social and economic issues. I just saw what people on the opposite side had to deal with. >Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be. Pointing to proof of a problem isn't proof that all opponents of that problem are justified. The position of many university campus students, and some professors, is not merely that racism is still a serious problem in the US but that non-minority groups have effectively been born with some innate sin which they must seek constant penance for due to historical power dynamics. Connected to this is a set of very tribalistic and insular beliefs not unlike what you see in alt-right communities. It's anti-intellectual and it's encouraging college students to view the world in a very narrow way. Oppression of minority groups was and is a dire issue, but it's important not to overcorrect. [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-turns-on-its-own.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/01/opinion/when-the-left-tur...
  - CasteTraitor 9y ago
    A perfect example would be the immigration debate. I believe if you are in this country ilegally you should be deported. Apparantly, according to many many liberals, that makes me a "racist." Of course race has nothing to do with it, I couldn't care less what color you are , if you're here illegally you need to be deported. And it's not just me, but I constantly see others who have the same beliefs getting accused of being racist. And that's just one example. I've seen people be accused of being sexist just because they didn't like Hilary Clinton. It was actually really common for liberals to accuse opponents of Clinton of being sexist regardless of the total absence of any evidence of actual sexism.
    - TheCoelacanth 9y ago
      > I constantly see others who have the same beliefs getting accused of being racist Probably because of the massive amount of racist rhetoric used in support of that position. It's not an inherently racist position, but when such a large portion of arguments in favor of the position use racist rhetoric it's hard to avoid being lumped in with those arguments.
      - ithilglin909 9y ago
        Lumping totally dis-similar arguments together is just intellectually lazy, which is most of my problem with the use of words like "racist, sexist, etc." They have valid applications, but are often used to circumvent rational debate.
        TheCoelacanth 9y ago
        Most people are intellectually lazy. Better get used to it. If you want your arguments to be consistently distinguished from the racist ones you will have to put in more effort to make them seem more distinct.
        ithilglin909 9y ago
        You don't even know what my arguments would be!
- abiox 9y ago
  > The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse i do think it's sometimes thrown around unfairly. however, from the other direction the criteria for such is nearly impossible. for some, racism 'doesn't exist anymore' and short of explicitly saying 'i am a legit racist for realz' everything can be explained away. be it 'race realism', stat framing or a variety of other things. part of this is the issue of what it means 'to be a racist'. some people would (for example) happily endorse laws that would disproportionately burden hispanic americans and harass hispanics of any sort, but claim they're 'not racist' because they 'don't care about color'. basically this dialectic allows real world racist activity through deferring the assessment of racism to a fundamentally unknowable and unprovable internal state.
bluthru 9y ago
>Without context what you are saying is meaningless. For example, it's beyond the pale to have a conversation about how demographics matter and that social science tells us that diversity is probably a net loss: http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/05/the_downside_of_diversity/ http://archive.boston.com/news/globe/ideas/articles/2007/08/... It reminds me of people who outright deny climate change.
- marinman 9y ago
  > that social science tells us that diversity is probably a net loss: The author of that study doesn't come to that conclusion: https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-says-his-research-was-twisted/30357 https://www.chronicle.com/blogs/percolator/robert-putnam-say...
  - bluthru 9y ago
    Thanks for the link. >his “extensive research and experience confirm the substantial benefits of diversity, including racial and ethnic diversity, to our society.” The benefit of diversity is diversity? It seems like the disadvantages of diversity are observed and tangible, while the potential upsides of diversity aren't defined or proven.
nailer 9y ago
I find a lot of US faux-'liberals' to be quite bigoted in terms of acting like measures against against illegal immigration from Mexico somehow are racist - implying all Mexicans are illegal immigrants. Similarly the same people speak as if all black people are working class, all white people are middle class, etc., which is also bigoted.
- supernovae 9y ago
  I can't agree with this at all because it doesn't reflect reality, in fact, is a projection of how conservatives "feel" so they can continue to ignore reality. Immigration isn't a black and white issue. Maybe if you feel that what liberals are implying has some merit of truth to upset you, then you would look at how to change those signals rather than pretend they're not there.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

We need different words (or perhaps phrases) for "mainstream (US) liberalism" and "classical liberalism". The problem is that "liberalism", without modifiers, used to mean "classical liberalism", and now most often means "mainstream liberalism". This leads to confusion (sometimes deliberate, as mainstream liberals try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability that classical liberalism earned).

eli_gottlieb 9y ago

Yes, and your average Bayesian reasoner also "adheres to their orthodoxy" with little "openness to other opinions". Opinions don't move Bayesians. Opinions shouldn't move Bayesians. Stop demanding that other people shift their priors towards yours and show evidence.

rorykoehler 9y ago

I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. They can say whatever they want, I don't really care, but I reserve the right to mock them and discriminate against them for being dangerous idiots. Being open to new and alternative thoughts is not the same as allowing unrestricted hate from racist triggered cowards. If I deem an idea as non-constructive or even destructive I will discard it. Alt-right ideas and ideologies are dead, a hangover from times past. What we are experiencing is the final purge, the virus is rearing up again like a cold sore and the collective immune system of society will stamp it out for good. This is a necessary yet uncomfortable inevitability which is why I'm perfectly ok with it.

sintaxi 9y ago
> I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. All more the reason to shine a light on these ideas. They won't hold under scrutiny. Blind obedience is not a reasonable expectation of people. We need to understand how our civilization got to where it is while others failed. There really is no such thing as "final purge". If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  >If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end. This is a natural process of any organically evolving system. It keeps what helps it and expels what doesn't. I agree there will never be an end to problems and division. The nature of them will simply change. Regarding shining light on the ideas... this is pointless. First they come from an emotional place so discussing them with logic won't work. Second I could argue with flat-earthers all day but what's the point.
  - 9y ago