5 ms·

WOW, I used to use Thunderbird until around 2010 when I moved to more modern clients, it's so sad to see that they're still stuck in 2010 in terms of design.

pfranz 9y ago
What's an example of modern client design? Looking at the "visual refresh" it looked like modern Outlook to me. But, even then, the layout for all the basic desktop email clients (Apple Mail, Outlook, Thunderbird) haven't really changed since the mid-90s. I feel like most of the audience moved to webmail or phone clients--not another desktop client. I'm probably part of a very small group, but I don't really care for the visual updates (I feel like the average user gets lost with new UI, anyway). I want a tool that can handle a very large amount of email, snappy and quality search, and I do appreciate some of the little "smart" features (reminding to add attachments, delayed/undoable send, calendar integration suggestions). All of those things seem to be smaller bullet points on the product page, each with a lot of work behind them.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Google Inbox would be an example, but there are so many and they all work similarly. Modern features are snoozing messages, automatic grouping of emails by type (promotions, spam, important, finance, family, etc.), and fewer buttons and options. Modern design looks nice, and it makes buttons for more common actions more prominent: new message is huge, reply is big, add label very small, etc., while in Thunderbird there are 10 times more buttons, and they're all the same size. It just needs a lot of work. I'm not a designer, so I can't pinpoint exactly what's wrong, but those I mentioned are the things that I notice and that I would start from. As for Google Inbox specifically, it gets rid of all spam and hardly ever gets it wrong. It also encourages you to get rid of useless emails thanks to grouping done well and a few related features, which made me achieve inbox zero for the first time.
  - ryukafalz 9y ago
    >Modern features are snoozing messages, automatic grouping of emails by type (promotions, spam, important, finance, family, etc.) Does any client other than Inbox have these?
    - nkkollaw 9y ago
      Yes.
    - __david__ 9y ago
      Servers have had these features for ages. I've been using Sieve scripts for almost 20 years.
      - zimpenfish 9y ago
        > > automatic grouping of emails by type > I've been using Sieve scripts for almost 20 years. Do the Sieve scripts do the grouping automatically? Or is it based on rules you've set? They are definitely different things...
        bigbugbag 9y ago
        Actually both, sieve filters automatically based on rules you set (or your admin set for you). More like same things, only difference is one you are in control and the other you are submitting to a third party who has control over your emails (and probably invades your privacy, profiles you, etc.).
  - pfranz 9y ago
    I'm genuinely curious; can you name a few more clients and features? A lot of the things you called out sound like "smart features" more than an overhaul to the app (or significant UI changes). I think a lot of the trendy email applications that came out around 2012 (Sparro and Mailbox), were really interesting, but niche. They've seemed to have all gone away and only nudged the email clients most people use everyday. I do like Gmails categorization, but I don't know of another client that does it. I also assume it requires a server-side component to look at and categorize email by looking at everyone's. Maybe it could work like spam detection? Again, it sounds difficult to get right--not just a design choice. Regarding the button size, looking at Google Inbox all of the buttons look proportional to me. Phones lend themselves to multiple rows of varying size icons. Desktops usually have a single vertical or horizontal row. Mixing up the size can waste space. It's funny looking back at screen shots from Thunderbird v1. It had a row of huge icons. They've since been replaced by smaller text-only buttons. Phone and web interfaces have less strict standards and consistency (which I think discourage a lot of people). I do think they could get rid of some clutter by ditching Chat, Address Book, Tags and Filters, and hide "Get Messages" under a mouseover (like Fastmail's client). Leaving "Write" on the left and and a text box for filtering on the right--perhaps ditching that whole row by integrating those two widgets into other places in the UI. But I also wouldn't mind if they improved the backend, added some of those "smart features" both you and I mentioned, and left the UI as it was years ago.
noja 9y ago
> when I moved to more modern clients Any chance you can give me your list? I haven't found any desktop e-mail client that rivals Thunderbird. Thanks.
- nkkollaw 9y ago
  Depends on what platform you are. I'm currently on Ubuntu and I use Google Inbox wrapped in an Electron app. I used to use Mailbox (which I think became Google Inbox? or was it Sparrow that did), Sparrow, Airmail. Thunderbird turns managing emails into a full-time job. No shortcuts whatsoever to help you getting rid of unimportant emails, awful spam protection. Of course, if you're productive in Thunderbird who cares and why not just use that, this is just my opinion :-)
  - bigbugbag 9y ago
    Sparrow has been dead for over 5 years so not exactly a modern thing, it was apple only, not cross platform anyways so not comparable to thunderbird. Airmail is also apple only so useless to most people. Mailbox was a phone only app that stopped operating last year, again not a cross platform desktop client. You're welcome to try again, but AFAIK there are no such "modern" cross platform desktop email client that you throw around as a model to follow. Even your current Inbox by google is a phone only / web only application and not a cross platform desktop email client. Claws[1], sylpheed[2] are such cross platform desktop email client competing with thunderbird and I don't any of the features you're complaining about I do not know what you are referring to when you mention thunderbird has awful spam protection. I maintain a dozen of TB installs and they do a great job of filtering spams for those who do not know better email hygiene. You should try experiencing email outside of the giant mega centralized repository that is killing the web and internet and see how it's done in the outside world that you seem to not visit often. [1]: http://www.claws-mail.org/ http://www.claws-mail.org/ [2]: http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/ http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/
- lathiat 9y ago
  IMHO, Mac Mail.app is still the best e-mail client out there.. but sadly only on OSX :( Thunderbird is the best for Linux.

pfranz 9y ago

What's an example of modern client design? Looking at the "visual refresh" it looked like modern Outlook to me. But, even then, the layout for all the basic desktop email clients (Apple Mail, Outlook, Thunderbird) haven't really changed since the mid-90s. I feel like most of the audience moved to webmail or phone clients--not another desktop client. I'm probably part of a very small group, but I don't really care for the visual updates (I feel like the average user gets lost with new UI, anyway). I want a tool that can handle a very large amount of email, snappy and quality search, and I do appreciate some of the little "smart" features (reminding to add attachments, delayed/undoable send, calendar integration suggestions). All of those things seem to be smaller bullet points on the product page, each with a lot of work behind them.

nkkollaw 9y ago
Google Inbox would be an example, but there are so many and they all work similarly. Modern features are snoozing messages, automatic grouping of emails by type (promotions, spam, important, finance, family, etc.), and fewer buttons and options. Modern design looks nice, and it makes buttons for more common actions more prominent: new message is huge, reply is big, add label very small, etc., while in Thunderbird there are 10 times more buttons, and they're all the same size. It just needs a lot of work. I'm not a designer, so I can't pinpoint exactly what's wrong, but those I mentioned are the things that I notice and that I would start from. As for Google Inbox specifically, it gets rid of all spam and hardly ever gets it wrong. It also encourages you to get rid of useless emails thanks to grouping done well and a few related features, which made me achieve inbox zero for the first time.
- ryukafalz 9y ago
  >Modern features are snoozing messages, automatic grouping of emails by type (promotions, spam, important, finance, family, etc.) Does any client other than Inbox have these?
  - nkkollaw 9y ago
    Yes.
  - __david__ 9y ago
    Servers have had these features for ages. I've been using Sieve scripts for almost 20 years.
    - zimpenfish 9y ago
      > > automatic grouping of emails by type > I've been using Sieve scripts for almost 20 years. Do the Sieve scripts do the grouping automatically? Or is it based on rules you've set? They are definitely different things...
      - bigbugbag 9y ago
        Actually both, sieve filters automatically based on rules you set (or your admin set for you). More like same things, only difference is one you are in control and the other you are submitting to a third party who has control over your emails (and probably invades your privacy, profiles you, etc.).
- pfranz 9y ago
  I'm genuinely curious; can you name a few more clients and features? A lot of the things you called out sound like "smart features" more than an overhaul to the app (or significant UI changes). I think a lot of the trendy email applications that came out around 2012 (Sparro and Mailbox), were really interesting, but niche. They've seemed to have all gone away and only nudged the email clients most people use everyday. I do like Gmails categorization, but I don't know of another client that does it. I also assume it requires a server-side component to look at and categorize email by looking at everyone's. Maybe it could work like spam detection? Again, it sounds difficult to get right--not just a design choice. Regarding the button size, looking at Google Inbox all of the buttons look proportional to me. Phones lend themselves to multiple rows of varying size icons. Desktops usually have a single vertical or horizontal row. Mixing up the size can waste space. It's funny looking back at screen shots from Thunderbird v1. It had a row of huge icons. They've since been replaced by smaller text-only buttons. Phone and web interfaces have less strict standards and consistency (which I think discourage a lot of people). I do think they could get rid of some clutter by ditching Chat, Address Book, Tags and Filters, and hide "Get Messages" under a mouseover (like Fastmail's client). Leaving "Write" on the left and and a text box for filtering on the right--perhaps ditching that whole row by integrating those two widgets into other places in the UI. But I also wouldn't mind if they improved the backend, added some of those "smart features" both you and I mentioned, and left the UI as it was years ago.

noja 9y ago

> when I moved to more modern clients Any chance you can give me your list? I haven't found any desktop e-mail client that rivals Thunderbird. Thanks.

nkkollaw 9y ago
Depends on what platform you are. I'm currently on Ubuntu and I use Google Inbox wrapped in an Electron app. I used to use Mailbox (which I think became Google Inbox? or was it Sparrow that did), Sparrow, Airmail. Thunderbird turns managing emails into a full-time job. No shortcuts whatsoever to help you getting rid of unimportant emails, awful spam protection. Of course, if you're productive in Thunderbird who cares and why not just use that, this is just my opinion :-)
- bigbugbag 9y ago
  Sparrow has been dead for over 5 years so not exactly a modern thing, it was apple only, not cross platform anyways so not comparable to thunderbird. Airmail is also apple only so useless to most people. Mailbox was a phone only app that stopped operating last year, again not a cross platform desktop client. You're welcome to try again, but AFAIK there are no such "modern" cross platform desktop email client that you throw around as a model to follow. Even your current Inbox by google is a phone only / web only application and not a cross platform desktop email client. Claws[1], sylpheed[2] are such cross platform desktop email client competing with thunderbird and I don't any of the features you're complaining about I do not know what you are referring to when you mention thunderbird has awful spam protection. I maintain a dozen of TB installs and they do a great job of filtering spams for those who do not know better email hygiene. You should try experiencing email outside of the giant mega centralized repository that is killing the web and internet and see how it's done in the outside world that you seem to not visit often. [1]: http://www.claws-mail.org/ http://www.claws-mail.org/ [2]: http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/ http://sylpheed.sraoss.jp/en/
lathiat 9y ago
IMHO, Mac Mail.app is still the best e-mail client out there.. but sadly only on OSX :( Thunderbird is the best for Linux.