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> Are you practicing crimethink? -A few hundred years ago, being an atheist was "crimethink", as was religious tolerance towards Jews, Muslims, and so forth.

> Are you practicing crimethink? -A few hundred years ago, being an atheist was "crimethink", as was religious tolerance towards Jews, Muslims, and so forth. -A few hundred years ago, questioning the divine right of kings to rule was "crimethink". -In the early 1600s, Galileo stood trial and was condemned for the "crimethink" of saying the Earth moved around the Sun, in contradiction to the teachings of the Church. -As little as 200 years ago, advocating racial equality was "crimethink", as was equal rights for women. -As little as 60 years ago, in the McCarthy era, being a leftist or socialist was "crimethink" and people lost their jobs and/or were jailed because of it. I do want diversity of opinion because I believe in the values of the Enlightenment, which include the ability to openly voice dissent without fear of reprisal and I have the strength of character to listen to the beliefs of others without feeling threatened; in short, I want diversity of opinion because I am a liberal.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago
"The only ideas I'm afraid of letting people say are the ones that I think may be true and that I don't like." - Sam Altman
- kps 9y ago
  > - Sam Altman … whose company's forum makes unpopular opinions literally fade away to nothing. Actions speak louder than words.
ithilglin909 9y ago
You say you want diversity of opinion because you are a "liberal" but mainstream liberalism has next to nothing to do with classical liberalism. Your average urban, coastal "liberal" adheres to their orthodoxies with about the level openness to other opinions as a stereotypical religious zealot.
- supernovae 9y ago
  Without context what you are saying is meaningless. Sure, "liberals" seem closed minded in not accepting racism, bigotry or hate speech but in accepting people for who they are, it's hard to say their opinions are stereotypical at all... I mean the democrats/liberals/progressives agree to disagree more often than not.
  - chmln 9y ago
    > racism, bigotry or hate speech The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse.
    - supernovae 9y ago
      how so? another comment without context.
      - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
        All right, here's some context. People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. (Source: Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years. I can't point you to a specific documentation of a specific event at the moment.) When that's the definition of "racist", then racism is indeed "nearly meaningless" - it's become such a broad term that it no longer means anything. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everything fits the definition... then nothing does."
        mikebenfield 9y ago
        > Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years Have you been on a university campus recently? Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about. And if you only consume media that highlights those silly things and never actually visit a university and talk to young people, yeah, you can easily get a very negative view of what universities and academic culture are like. > People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. Well, it is inherently oppressive, as is just about every other traditional culture, and citizens have to be constantly vigilant about to make sure that oppressive nature is held at bay as much as possible. Can there really be any doubt about this? Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be.
- AnimalMuppet 9y ago
  We need different words (or perhaps phrases) for "mainstream (US) liberalism" and "classical liberalism". The problem is that "liberalism", without modifiers, used to mean "classical liberalism", and now most often means "mainstream liberalism". This leads to confusion (sometimes deliberate, as mainstream liberals try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability that classical liberalism earned).
- eli_gottlieb 9y ago
  Yes, and your average Bayesian reasoner also "adheres to their orthodoxy" with little "openness to other opinions". Opinions don't move Bayesians. Opinions shouldn't move Bayesians. Stop demanding that other people shift their priors towards yours and show evidence.
- rorykoehler 9y ago
  I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. They can say whatever they want, I don't really care, but I reserve the right to mock them and discriminate against them for being dangerous idiots. Being open to new and alternative thoughts is not the same as allowing unrestricted hate from racist triggered cowards. If I deem an idea as non-constructive or even destructive I will discard it. Alt-right ideas and ideologies are dead, a hangover from times past. What we are experiencing is the final purge, the virus is rearing up again like a cold sore and the collective immune system of society will stamp it out for good. This is a necessary yet uncomfortable inevitability which is why I'm perfectly ok with it.
  - sintaxi 9y ago
    > I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. All more the reason to shine a light on these ideas. They won't hold under scrutiny. Blind obedience is not a reasonable expectation of people. We need to understand how our civilization got to where it is while others failed. There really is no such thing as "final purge". If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end.
    - rorykoehler 9y ago
      >If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end. This is a natural process of any organically evolving system. It keeps what helps it and expels what doesn't. I agree there will never be an end to problems and division. The nature of them will simply change. Regarding shining light on the ideas... this is pointless. First they come from an emotional place so discussing them with logic won't work. Second I could argue with flat-earthers all day but what's the point.
      - 9y ago
bduerst 9y ago
Nitpick: Galileo was put under house arrest from the church not because of his heliocentric views, but because he publicly mocked the pope (making him "Simplicio" in Dialogue), even after Galileo was warned not to.

AnimalMuppet 9y ago

"The only ideas I'm afraid of letting people say are the ones that I think may be true and that I don't like." - Sam Altman

kps 9y ago
> - Sam Altman … whose company's forum makes unpopular opinions literally fade away to nothing. Actions speak louder than words.

ithilglin909 9y ago

You say you want diversity of opinion because you are a "liberal" but mainstream liberalism has next to nothing to do with classical liberalism. Your average urban, coastal "liberal" adheres to their orthodoxies with about the level openness to other opinions as a stereotypical religious zealot.

supernovae 9y ago
Without context what you are saying is meaningless. Sure, "liberals" seem closed minded in not accepting racism, bigotry or hate speech but in accepting people for who they are, it's hard to say their opinions are stereotypical at all... I mean the democrats/liberals/progressives agree to disagree more often than not.
- chmln 9y ago
  > racism, bigotry or hate speech The problem is that these words have become nearly meaningless from vast overuse.
  - supernovae 9y ago
    how so? another comment without context.
    - AnimalMuppet 9y ago
      All right, here's some context. People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. (Source: Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years. I can't point you to a specific documentation of a specific event at the moment.) When that's the definition of "racist", then racism is indeed "nearly meaningless" - it's become such a broad term that it no longer means anything. To paraphrase The Incredibles: "When everything fits the definition... then nothing does."
      - mikebenfield 9y ago
        > Watching what's happened on university campuses for the last couple of years Have you been on a university campus recently? Contrary to what some reactionary conservatives seem to think, they are not generally oppressive places with no tolerance for conservative thought. Yes, occasionally 19 year olds say and do some silly things. That's kind of what being young and having your first taste of adulthood is supposed to be about. And if you only consume media that highlights those silly things and never actually visit a university and talk to young people, yeah, you can easily get a very negative view of what universities and academic culture are like. > People are classified as "racist" for believing that the culture that came out of northern Europe is not inherently oppressive. Well, it is inherently oppressive, as is just about every other traditional culture, and citizens have to be constantly vigilant about to make sure that oppressive nature is held at bay as much as possible. Can there really be any doubt about this? Consider, among many other facts, the fact that Alabama just very nearly elected to the US Senate a man who thinks the US was better under slavery and that the constitutional amendments granting women and blacks the right to vote should be revoked. If that's not enough to convince you that racism is a serious problem I don't know what would be.
AnimalMuppet 9y ago
We need different words (or perhaps phrases) for "mainstream (US) liberalism" and "classical liberalism". The problem is that "liberalism", without modifiers, used to mean "classical liberalism", and now most often means "mainstream liberalism". This leads to confusion (sometimes deliberate, as mainstream liberals try to wrap themselves in the mantle of respectability that classical liberalism earned).
eli_gottlieb 9y ago
Yes, and your average Bayesian reasoner also "adheres to their orthodoxy" with little "openness to other opinions". Opinions don't move Bayesians. Opinions shouldn't move Bayesians. Stop demanding that other people shift their priors towards yours and show evidence.
rorykoehler 9y ago
I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. They can say whatever they want, I don't really care, but I reserve the right to mock them and discriminate against them for being dangerous idiots. Being open to new and alternative thoughts is not the same as allowing unrestricted hate from racist triggered cowards. If I deem an idea as non-constructive or even destructive I will discard it. Alt-right ideas and ideologies are dead, a hangover from times past. What we are experiencing is the final purge, the virus is rearing up again like a cold sore and the collective immune system of society will stamp it out for good. This is a necessary yet uncomfortable inevitability which is why I'm perfectly ok with it.
- sintaxi 9y ago
  > I've heard all the alt-right arguments, long before the term alt-right made it into contemporary vernacular, and concluded that they are meritless ideas coming from idiots who lack the ability of genuine critical thought. All more the reason to shine a light on these ideas. They won't hold under scrutiny. Blind obedience is not a reasonable expectation of people. We need to understand how our civilization got to where it is while others failed. There really is no such thing as "final purge". If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end.
  - rorykoehler 9y ago
    >If purging becomes part of our ideology there will always be another enemy to deal with and the division will never end. This is a natural process of any organically evolving system. It keeps what helps it and expels what doesn't. I agree there will never be an end to problems and division. The nature of them will simply change. Regarding shining light on the ideas... this is pointless. First they come from an emotional place so discussing them with logic won't work. Second I could argue with flat-earthers all day but what's the point.
    - 9y ago

bduerst 9y ago

Nitpick: Galileo was put under house arrest from the church not because of his heliocentric views, but because he publicly mocked the pope (making him "Simplicio" in Dialogue), even after Galileo was warned not to.