6 ms·

This is just protectionism at its finest. You better don’t think that would happen if FB was a french company. The industrial-governmental-complex is stronger i

by Jdam 9y ago

This is just protectionism at its finest. You better don’t think that would happen if FB was a french company. The industrial-governmental-complex is stronger in France than anywhere else in the western world.

geofft 9y ago
That seems reasonable - as long as the US maintains its protectionist stance of not letting people born in France compete for jobs on a level playing field with people born in the US, why should France allow employers in the US to compete on a level playing field with employers in France? (Are you counting protectionist immigration laws as part of countries' industrial-governmental complexes?)
- jyrkesh 9y ago
  I could be reading it wrong, but your post came across as overly combative and an appeal to whataboutism. I'd say both are protectionist and both are wrong. My interpretation of your parent was simply that it is protectionist of France to be doing this (and I'd argue that makes it as wrong as the American protectionism that you brought up).
- i_am_nomad 9y ago
  I would argue that immigration laws are not strictly economic or commercial policies. You’re drawing a false equivalence.
- jlavine 9y ago
  But that goes both ways: It's no easier for an American to move to and work in France than for a Frenchman to do so in the US. There are plenty of Americans who would love to make the move - to gain quality of life at the expense of a big chunk of their salary - if it weren't for immigration restrictions. A fairer comparison would ask whether the US government has taken any actions against European companies operating in the US similar to those enacted or threatened by Europe against Microsoft, Google, Facebook.
  - weberc2 9y ago
    This was my experience when I looked into moving to France from the US a few years ago. I agree with your conclusion as well--this comparison is not a good one.
danieldk 9y ago
We hear this argument over and over again. See, they want Apple and Starbucks to pay taxes despite special arrangements because protectionism. Guess what, they are now going after Ikea, a large company from the European Union. CNBC compiled a lost of fines handed out by the EU and some of the largest ones concern companies from the EU: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/the-largest-fines-dished-out-by-the-eu-commission-facebook-google.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/the-largest-fines-dished-out...
- weberc2 9y ago
  The argument was about French companies, not EU companies. Ideally, you would demonstrate France making a regular fuss against French companies, not a single EU company; however, maybe that's difficult due to the legal arrangement between France and the EU?
  - mickronome 9y ago
    For starters, in general the privacy laws of EU and it's member countries have significantly different rules for information stored in the country, versus outside of the country. Part of the reason you will mostly hear of companies outside France running afoul of the rules, is that companies that is incorporated outside French jurisdiction is generally out of reach of French authority, and they try get away with ignoring them. In the case with Facebook described in the article, Facebook refuse to even provide samples of what data they send, stating that they consider themselves not bound by French law and EU rules, but only by US rules. French companies are more unlikely to get into that situation in the first hand, as if they would break data protection laws and ignore legal requests for information, the police could (potentially) walk in one day, only to walk out with all your storage arrays. Given the history of Europe, it's almost certainly not all about protectionism, and part of it might also be about a different kind of protectionism then economic. As the US election seems to show, availability of mass amounts of personal information can be a threath to democratic process itself, and Europe has seen information turned into weapons of population control long before internet was a thing, and the democracy we have is at the cost of tremendous amounts of blood and death. Sure, having the information only available within a country doesn't negate the risk for that country, but it helps reduce it for all other. Privacy laws help ensure democratic processed is not as easily hijacked by either foreign states, or multinationals.
hrktb 9y ago
European companies know the rules and grow with these restrictions from the start. FB wouldn’t have grown (that way) in France in the first place.
Parcissons 9y ago
Yeah, they are trying to pull a Volkswagen there.
amyjess 9y ago
This is no surprise. France once banned the importation of Japanese cars back in the '80s.
bsaul 9y ago
This is probably true, but you may see it another way: the fact that FB isn't french makes it possible for french to get proper legislation, because it makes our government free of all economical or job pressure. Also, I don't agree with the protectionism part. We (unfortunately) don't even have the beginning of a french competitor to facebook or whatsapp, even in the whole Europe. So asking whatsapp to comply can not possibly be seen as a way to favor the local brands. In that sense, it's completely different from what China is doing in the field. Edit: ironicaly, the fact that FB doesn't pay any tax in France also makes our government 100% free of all pressure :D
- magnusdeus123 9y ago
  > the fact that FB isn't french makes it possible for french to get proper legislation After watching that recent video by TechAltar where he speaks about the EU not having a lot of tech companies, I was feeling a bit low. But your point actually makes sense, and makes me think that perhaps it's for the best since the EU will actually have the political means to reign in big tech. companies - basically the big oil of this age.
jimnotgym 9y ago
Is it protectionist to ask US companies to pay tax and abide by our laws. Perhaps you could provide us with examples of French companies operating in the US that are breaking the law, not paying tax and getting away with it? Could I start a US chain of Jimnotgyms tomorrow and avoid tax by a dodgy brand license deal? I don't think so. US tech companies (and in many cases the US government) have been operating as if the national laws of the rest of the world are sub-ordinate to theirs, or just in the way. Succesive UK governments have turned a blind eye due to the Special Relationship. However things are starting to catch up in the EU. There has been a distinct change in opinion towards the US in Europe I have detected. Bush jnr made the US look sub-intellectual, Obama made it seem inward-looking. I don't know anyone in Europe who thinks Trump is anything more than a deeply cynical character. People don't see the US as the land of opportunity and commerce anymore. They see it as self-serving and insular. Great empires all come to an end. It takes time, but this one is in decline.
JumpCrisscross 9y ago
> if FB was a french company Let’s be honest, Facebook would have never had a chance as a French company.

by Jdam 9y ago

geofft 9y ago

That seems reasonable - as long as the US maintains its protectionist stance of not letting people born in France compete for jobs on a level playing field with people born in the US, why should France allow employers in the US to compete on a level playing field with employers in France? (Are you counting protectionist immigration laws as part of countries' industrial-governmental complexes?)

jyrkesh 9y ago
I could be reading it wrong, but your post came across as overly combative and an appeal to whataboutism. I'd say both are protectionist and both are wrong. My interpretation of your parent was simply that it is protectionist of France to be doing this (and I'd argue that makes it as wrong as the American protectionism that you brought up).
i_am_nomad 9y ago
I would argue that immigration laws are not strictly economic or commercial policies. You’re drawing a false equivalence.
jlavine 9y ago
But that goes both ways: It's no easier for an American to move to and work in France than for a Frenchman to do so in the US. There are plenty of Americans who would love to make the move - to gain quality of life at the expense of a big chunk of their salary - if it weren't for immigration restrictions. A fairer comparison would ask whether the US government has taken any actions against European companies operating in the US similar to those enacted or threatened by Europe against Microsoft, Google, Facebook.
- weberc2 9y ago
  This was my experience when I looked into moving to France from the US a few years ago. I agree with your conclusion as well--this comparison is not a good one.

danieldk 9y ago

We hear this argument over and over again. See, they want Apple and Starbucks to pay taxes despite special arrangements because protectionism. Guess what, they are now going after Ikea, a large company from the European Union. CNBC compiled a lost of fines handed out by the EU and some of the largest ones concern companies from the EU: https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/the-largest-fines-dished-out-by-the-eu-commission-facebook-google.html https://www.cnbc.com/2017/06/27/the-largest-fines-dished-out...

weberc2 9y ago
The argument was about French companies, not EU companies. Ideally, you would demonstrate France making a regular fuss against French companies, not a single EU company; however, maybe that's difficult due to the legal arrangement between France and the EU?
- mickronome 9y ago
  For starters, in general the privacy laws of EU and it's member countries have significantly different rules for information stored in the country, versus outside of the country. Part of the reason you will mostly hear of companies outside France running afoul of the rules, is that companies that is incorporated outside French jurisdiction is generally out of reach of French authority, and they try get away with ignoring them. In the case with Facebook described in the article, Facebook refuse to even provide samples of what data they send, stating that they consider themselves not bound by French law and EU rules, but only by US rules. French companies are more unlikely to get into that situation in the first hand, as if they would break data protection laws and ignore legal requests for information, the police could (potentially) walk in one day, only to walk out with all your storage arrays. Given the history of Europe, it's almost certainly not all about protectionism, and part of it might also be about a different kind of protectionism then economic. As the US election seems to show, availability of mass amounts of personal information can be a threath to democratic process itself, and Europe has seen information turned into weapons of population control long before internet was a thing, and the democracy we have is at the cost of tremendous amounts of blood and death. Sure, having the information only available within a country doesn't negate the risk for that country, but it helps reduce it for all other. Privacy laws help ensure democratic processed is not as easily hijacked by either foreign states, or multinationals.

hrktb 9y ago

European companies know the rules and grow with these restrictions from the start. FB wouldn’t have grown (that way) in France in the first place.

Parcissons 9y ago

Yeah, they are trying to pull a Volkswagen there.

amyjess 9y ago

This is no surprise. France once banned the importation of Japanese cars back in the '80s.

bsaul 9y ago

This is probably true, but you may see it another way: the fact that FB isn't french makes it possible for french to get proper legislation, because it makes our government free of all economical or job pressure. Also, I don't agree with the protectionism part. We (unfortunately) don't even have the beginning of a french competitor to facebook or whatsapp, even in the whole Europe. So asking whatsapp to comply can not possibly be seen as a way to favor the local brands. In that sense, it's completely different from what China is doing in the field. Edit: ironicaly, the fact that FB doesn't pay any tax in France also makes our government 100% free of all pressure :D

magnusdeus123 9y ago
> the fact that FB isn't french makes it possible for french to get proper legislation After watching that recent video by TechAltar where he speaks about the EU not having a lot of tech companies, I was feeling a bit low. But your point actually makes sense, and makes me think that perhaps it's for the best since the EU will actually have the political means to reign in big tech. companies - basically the big oil of this age.

jimnotgym 9y ago

Is it protectionist to ask US companies to pay tax and abide by our laws. Perhaps you could provide us with examples of French companies operating in the US that are breaking the law, not paying tax and getting away with it? Could I start a US chain of Jimnotgyms tomorrow and avoid tax by a dodgy brand license deal? I don't think so. US tech companies (and in many cases the US government) have been operating as if the national laws of the rest of the world are sub-ordinate to theirs, or just in the way. Succesive UK governments have turned a blind eye due to the Special Relationship. However things are starting to catch up in the EU. There has been a distinct change in opinion towards the US in Europe I have detected. Bush jnr made the US look sub-intellectual, Obama made it seem inward-looking. I don't know anyone in Europe who thinks Trump is anything more than a deeply cynical character. People don't see the US as the land of opportunity and commerce anymore. They see it as self-serving and insular. Great empires all come to an end. It takes time, but this one is in decline.

JumpCrisscross 9y ago

> if FB was a french company Let’s be honest, Facebook would have never had a chance as a French company.