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If we grant that they need PCT, and it is installed but not enabled on this track, who is to blame?

by mkempe 9y ago

nanis 9y ago
First, I do not grant that they need PCT. It may be a nice to have, but an engineer ought to be able to do the one job s/he is supposed to do. I would understand if tolerances were so tight that an error of a few MPG above the limit caused the disaster. In that case, I would grant that they need more than PCT, and blame Amtrak. However, when someone is doing more than 80 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, s/he doesn't get to deflect blame to anything or anybody else. I am impressed by NTSB's willingness to hold harmless people who do that. If a pilot were one-hundredth as reckless, s/he would not have a career. There is also this: A train derailed July 2 southwest of Tacoma near Steilacoom, Wash., threatening to send several rail cars plunging into Puget Sound. High speed was the cause, the engineer only got suspended, presumably because no one died. I presume for every deadly accident there are at least five accidents with no deaths, and 50 close calls due to speed. Remember, the only job of the engineer is to regulate the speed of the train. I am all for firing all the engineers if every time they kill people they will use the PCT excuse. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtraks-cascades-rail-lines-saw-derailment-july/961382001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtrak...
- mkempe 9y ago
  You can blame the locomotive engineer as much as you feel to sate your anger -- still, people have died and been injured. Meanwhile, it is a fact that fail-safe engineering controls would have prevented the disaster. And what if the locomotive engineer has a heart attack, leading to a deadly accident? will you blame him?
  - nanis 9y ago
    My anger is directed towards the press and NTSB who rush to hold engineers harmless in these accidents. As for heart attacks, AFAIK this has been standard equipment for ages: Locomotives have a deadman pedal that must be constantly pressed and periodically released to ensure the driver is still there and awake.[1] So, when a train is traveling at almost three times the appropriate speed, it is being done on purpose. My argument is simple: If engineers will not be held to responsible when people die because of a speeding train, then what's the point of having an engineer? [1]: https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-heart-attack-while-driving-a-train https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-heart-...
    - nanis 9y ago
      It turns out an "alerter" is required equipment[1]: on or after November 8, 1999 a working alerter or deadman control shall be provided in the controlling locomotive of each passenger train operating in other than cab signal[2], automatic train[3] control, or automatic train stop[4] territory. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_systems_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_St...

If we grant that they need PCT, and it is installed but not enabled on this track, who is to blame?

by mkempe 9y ago

If we grant that they need PCT, and it is installed but not enabled on this track, who is to blame?

First, I do not grant that they need PCT. It may be a nice to have, but an engineer ought to be able to do the one job s/he is supposed to do. I would understand if tolerances were so tight that an error of a few MPG above the limit caused the disaster. In that case, I would grant that they need more than PCT, and blame Amtrak. However, when someone is doing more than 80 MPH in a 30 MPH zone, s/he doesn't get to deflect blame to anything or anybody else. I am impressed by NTSB's willingness to hold harmless people who do that. If a pilot were one-hundredth as reckless, s/he would not have a career. There is also this: A train derailed July 2 southwest of Tacoma near Steilacoom, Wash., threatening to send several rail cars plunging into Puget Sound. High speed was the cause, the engineer only got suspended, presumably because no one died. I presume for every deadly accident there are at least five accidents with no deaths, and 50 close calls due to speed. Remember, the only job of the engineer is to regulate the speed of the train. I am all for firing all the engineers if every time they kill people they will use the PCT excuse. [1]: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtraks-cascades-rail-lines-saw-derailment-july/961382001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2017/12/18/amtrak...

mkempe 9y ago
You can blame the locomotive engineer as much as you feel to sate your anger -- still, people have died and been injured. Meanwhile, it is a fact that fail-safe engineering controls would have prevented the disaster. And what if the locomotive engineer has a heart attack, leading to a deadly accident? will you blame him?
- nanis 9y ago
  My anger is directed towards the press and NTSB who rush to hold engineers harmless in these accidents. As for heart attacks, AFAIK this has been standard equipment for ages: Locomotives have a deadman pedal that must be constantly pressed and periodically released to ensure the driver is still there and awake.[1] So, when a train is traveling at almost three times the appropriate speed, it is being done on purpose. My argument is simple: If engineers will not be held to responsible when people die because of a speeding train, then what's the point of having an engineer? [1]: https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-heart-attack-while-driving-a-train https://www.quora.com/What-if-the-train-driver-gets-a-heart-...
  - nanis 9y ago
    It turns out an "alerter" is required equipment[1]: on or after November 8, 1999 a working alerter or deadman control shall be provided in the controlling locomotive of each passenger train operating in other than cab signal[2], automatic train[3] control, or automatic train stop[4] territory. [1]: https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237 https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/49/238.237 [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_systems_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cab_signalling#Cab_signalling_... [3]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_control#United... [4]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_train_stop#United_St...