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My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Ch

by cJ0th 9y ago

My advice would be Xmpp with OMEMO encryption. On mobile, you can get the Conversations App for Android via Fdroid (no google play!), for the iPhone there is Chatsecure and on the Desktop you can use Gajim. The advantage over Signal would be that 1.) you don't have to share your telephone number and 2.) you don't rely on a single service provider/accounts are decentralized (there are various services for free and paid accounts and you could also host your own server) e: Dear stranger, I'd be very interested in an explanation for your downvote. thanks!

StavrosK 9y ago
I didn't downvote you, but I imagine the counterpoint goes something like "The advantage of Signal over your solution is that more than 3% of the population can set it up".
- JepZ 9y ago
  The 3% get a little larger when you give them this link (German) ;-) https://www.jabber.de/clients/android-ios/conversations-guide/ https://www.jabber.de/clients/android-ios/conversations-guid... But I agree: it should be even simpler to set up.
  - StavrosK 9y ago
    Conversations does optimize for ease of use versus configurability, which is great, but most people have stuff to do, and figuring out what XMPP parameters to use etc isn't in that list. That's why making something that's as simple as possible is very important. Conversations could go even further and hide the XMPP details, connecting to (or creating an account on) a default server, and have the "advanced" settings behind a "I already have an XMPP account" link.
- fineng123 9y ago
  Lol he doesn't get it I think those types live in this world where everyone is savvy enough to do these things
Jarwain 9y ago
If memory serves, XMPP is pretty battery intensive on mobile because one has to maintain a consistent connection to the server to receive messages
- NoGravitas 9y ago
  On my mobile device, Conversations isn't a top battery user. Google Play Services are much, much higher, and there's another chat app that's usually in the top even though I rarely use it. Push notifications aren't magic -- they also have to maintain a consistent connection to the server, and re-activate it after a sleep. What having a push notifications provider like Play Services does is let you keep just one connection open for all apps. But adding just a few more doesn't make a big difference. I also have an IMAP IDLE connection open all the time (K9 Mail), and it doesn't move the needle, either.
- JepZ 9y ago
  Well, if the server and the client support the required extensions the battery impact is very low: https://conversations.im/#optimizations https://conversations.im/#optimizations Those extensions are pretty standard stuff nowadays. Here you can find an explanation with a few more details (section "Battery drain"): https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html
teekert 9y ago
I like your solution, but indeed, this is not feasible if your want all your friends and your grand ma to leave WA :) I'd also suggest Riot/Matrix along those lines.
JepZ 9y ago
Actually, I use XMPP+OMEMO for 90% of my messaging and Conversations (Android App) is superb. Sadly Chatsecure seems to be a little more demanding in terms of server support (requires some odd Push Notification extension) and the desktop clients need some more love too (I use Gajim and Pidgin so far). Overall, I feel much better than to use some data hungry WhatsApp or some walled garden Signal app. Yes, it is a little more complicated to setup, but in the end it works as good as the others (e.g. in terms of energy consumption) and you don't have to worry about some company having different plans than you. PS: While I sympathize with the decentralized nature of Matrix I still like the XMPP clients better.
- cJ0th 9y ago
  > Yes, it is a little more complicated to setup, but in the end it works as good as the others And this is quite literally true. It really only is a little more complicated. This is not a handwaving statement. You don't need any technical know-how to get Conversations running. It's only the fingerprint thing you have to explain to people who are not tech-savvy. But if you hit the right tone they'll have no problem with that either.
  - cosarara97 9y ago
    There is the issue of the account. Whatsapp and Telegram are free (signal too?) and require 0 setup. With Conversations, you either have to pay for a conversations.im account, or open your browser and register on another server. I certainly can't imagine my grandmother doing that.
    - cJ0th 9y ago
      How is this any more difficult than signing up for a free e-mail address and then using an e-mail app on the phone?
      - catdog 9y ago
        It isn't any different. In "the old days" chances were high you even could just login with that e-mail account you already had, not only with gmail but with some other larger providers as well.
antihero 9y ago
Because we're talking about the people we know day to day, not a bunch of people who are interested in installing obscure apps. Last time I tried chatsecure a few months ago it was buggy and difficult to find a server to sign up to that supported the bizarrely difficult to navigate XMPP extensions that allow you maybe sort of know if it's all working properly. So yes maybe for ultra secure comms with specific parties, but useless as a day-to-day solution.
- cJ0th 9y ago
  I can't say anything about chatsecure but Conversations is pretty user-friendly. You may have to show a non-techy once how you compare fingerprints but other than that it's pretty straight forward.

by cJ0th 9y ago

StavrosK 9y ago

I didn't downvote you, but I imagine the counterpoint goes something like "The advantage of Signal over your solution is that more than 3% of the population can set it up".

JepZ 9y ago
The 3% get a little larger when you give them this link (German) ;-) https://www.jabber.de/clients/android-ios/conversations-guide/ https://www.jabber.de/clients/android-ios/conversations-guid... But I agree: it should be even simpler to set up.
- StavrosK 9y ago
  Conversations does optimize for ease of use versus configurability, which is great, but most people have stuff to do, and figuring out what XMPP parameters to use etc isn't in that list. That's why making something that's as simple as possible is very important. Conversations could go even further and hide the XMPP details, connecting to (or creating an account on) a default server, and have the "advanced" settings behind a "I already have an XMPP account" link.
fineng123 9y ago
Lol he doesn't get it I think those types live in this world where everyone is savvy enough to do these things

Jarwain 9y ago

If memory serves, XMPP is pretty battery intensive on mobile because one has to maintain a consistent connection to the server to receive messages

NoGravitas 9y ago
On my mobile device, Conversations isn't a top battery user. Google Play Services are much, much higher, and there's another chat app that's usually in the top even though I rarely use it. Push notifications aren't magic -- they also have to maintain a consistent connection to the server, and re-activate it after a sleep. What having a push notifications provider like Play Services does is let you keep just one connection open for all apps. But adding just a few more doesn't make a big difference. I also have an IMAP IDLE connection open all the time (K9 Mail), and it doesn't move the needle, either.
JepZ 9y ago
Well, if the server and the client support the required extensions the battery impact is very low: https://conversations.im/#optimizations https://conversations.im/#optimizations Those extensions are pretty standard stuff nowadays. Here you can find an explanation with a few more details (section "Battery drain"): https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html https://gultsch.de/xmpp_2016.html

teekert 9y ago

I like your solution, but indeed, this is not feasible if your want all your friends and your grand ma to leave WA :) I'd also suggest Riot/Matrix along those lines.

JepZ 9y ago

Actually, I use XMPP+OMEMO for 90% of my messaging and Conversations (Android App) is superb. Sadly Chatsecure seems to be a little more demanding in terms of server support (requires some odd Push Notification extension) and the desktop clients need some more love too (I use Gajim and Pidgin so far). Overall, I feel much better than to use some data hungry WhatsApp or some walled garden Signal app. Yes, it is a little more complicated to setup, but in the end it works as good as the others (e.g. in terms of energy consumption) and you don't have to worry about some company having different plans than you. PS: While I sympathize with the decentralized nature of Matrix I still like the XMPP clients better.

cJ0th 9y ago
> Yes, it is a little more complicated to setup, but in the end it works as good as the others And this is quite literally true. It really only is a little more complicated. This is not a handwaving statement. You don't need any technical know-how to get Conversations running. It's only the fingerprint thing you have to explain to people who are not tech-savvy. But if you hit the right tone they'll have no problem with that either.
- cosarara97 9y ago
  There is the issue of the account. Whatsapp and Telegram are free (signal too?) and require 0 setup. With Conversations, you either have to pay for a conversations.im account, or open your browser and register on another server. I certainly can't imagine my grandmother doing that.
  - cJ0th 9y ago
    How is this any more difficult than signing up for a free e-mail address and then using an e-mail app on the phone?
    - catdog 9y ago
      It isn't any different. In "the old days" chances were high you even could just login with that e-mail account you already had, not only with gmail but with some other larger providers as well.

antihero 9y ago

Because we're talking about the people we know day to day, not a bunch of people who are interested in installing obscure apps. Last time I tried chatsecure a few months ago it was buggy and difficult to find a server to sign up to that supported the bizarrely difficult to navigate XMPP extensions that allow you maybe sort of know if it's all working properly. So yes maybe for ultra secure comms with specific parties, but useless as a day-to-day solution.

cJ0th 9y ago
I can't say anything about chatsecure but Conversations is pretty user-friendly. You may have to show a non-techy once how you compare fingerprints but other than that it's pretty straight forward.